"They denied us the Hajj!"

[EsperandoAGodot]

Once more, I cite Birthright

[Baraka Bryan]

i don't think foldspace would make it any easier for lower income muslims to make the Hajj.... wasn't foldspace travel fucking expensive? or at least normal expensive?

I think the Guild provided free or reduced rate transport for Muad'dib's pilgrams but I'm not sure if that was his order or their choice.

I was referring to the earlier idea of muslim pilgrims making a hajj post-space colonization ... i guess we can't know what relative prices would have been like since we dont know the fuel or whatever drove the foldspace engines...

my main point was I don't think foldspace would have simplified the making of the Hajj at all, barring outside influence such as Muad'dib had over the guild.

I'm only suggesting that before the Atreides ascendancy, the Guild may have already been offering pilgrim rates. The did give free transport to the CET.

From the link SR provided it seems you can have someone appointed to make the hajj for you.

guess that's a possibility ...

[moreh_yeladim]

Once more, I cite Birthright

Thank you for conclusively, if irrelevantly, proving that if Jews had to make a mandatory pilgrimage we'd figure out a way for everyone and his brother in college to go.

[Drunken Idaho]

Jessica recoiled, fearing she would become lost in an ocean of oneness. Still, the corridor remained, revealing to Jessica that the Fremen culture was far older than she had suspected.

There had been Fremen on Poritrin, she saw, a people grown soft with an easy planet, fair game for Imperial raiders to harvest and plant human colonies on Bela Tegeuse and Salusa Secundus.

Oh, the wailing Jessica sensed in that parting.

Far down the corridor, an image-voice screamed: "They denied us the Hajj!"

Jessica saw the slave cribs on Bela Tegeuse down that inner corridor, saw the weeding out and the selecting that spread men to Rossak and Harmonthep. Scenes of brutal ferocity opened to her like the petals of a terrible flower. And she saw the thread of the past carried by Sayyadina after Sayyadina—first by word of mouth, hidden in the sand chanteys, then refined through their own Reverend Mothers with the discovery of the poison drug on Rossak...and now developed to subtle strength on Arrakis in the discovery of the Water of Life.

Far down the inner corridor, another voice screamed: "Never to forgive! Never to forget!"

HAJJ: holy journey.

The Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that devout Muslims are expected to attempt at least once during their lives, begins in a few days, and reminded of this quote in Dune, I've been wondering what this practice would mean in terms of the background story and to future space colonization in the real world.

In the Duniverse, does this quote not mean that until they were "harvested", the Fremen still engaged in the practice of Hajj? (And if not, how then could they have been "denied" it?) What would have been the destination of their pilgrimage? Mecca on Old Earth? Some "New Mecca" on some "New Earth"? (There were at least two new "Muhammeds", after all; maybe they had their own Meccas?)

In real world terms, will this practice prevent devout Muslims from participating in long-term colonization voyages (as on generation ships) that will by their nature be one-way and therefore prevent generations from fulfilling the quasi-obligation "to goon on pilgrimage"? (Didn't someone post a link to a news story about Muslims in space? Was that here or over on Dearly Departed 'Keen?)

I'm glad someone posted about this, since this was one of the parts that really grabbed me the last time I read Dune. I think it was one of those layers I never fully understood until that particular reading. As you all know, Frank's work has a tendency to do this.

Anyway, I think the Hajj that these Fremen slaves are wailing about must have been a severely evolved version of Islam. Were Fremen not the descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers? Perhaps wandering from one planet to another was part of the Hajj. Think about it. Sunni says "make a pilgrimage to Mecca." Zen says "make a pilgrimage to anywhere you want."

And I'm thinking that all of this Bela Tegeuse stuff happened long after the two Muhammeds (you're referring to the second and third Islamic movements, or whatever it was called, correct?). After this slave crib business, I'm thinking that was when Zensunnis were no longer Zensunnis, and instead had become Fremen.

Amazing though, how Frank can give us a few sentences on the subject and say so much with it, covering so much history.

[A Thing of Eternity]

I was under the impression that the Fremen were very much still Zensunni, Fremen was their nationality, or ethnic group, etc, and some form of Zensunni being their religion.

[Drunken Idaho]

I was under the impression that the Fremen were very much still Zensunni, Fremen was their nationality, or ethnic group, etc, and some form of Zensunni being their religion.

Yeah, good point. "Some form of Zensunni" is the key part. It seemed to me that the Fremen Zensunni religion had become a thing quite different from what the rest of the universe would call "Zensunni" but close enough so that Jessica could recognize it. For instance, adding the Panoplia Propheticus to the mix probably altered the Fremen Zensunni faith a great deal.

[reverendmotherQ.]

Thing already posted the immediate thought I had : by the time humans are actually colonizing space, the Sunni & Shia will have either killed each other off, or some John Wayne American President will have bombed them all into submission. (If not, then it's like all the other things your crazy religion denies you - stay home.)

On the poor-Haji thing, the Saudi government has a massive program set up for aid to Muslims who can't afford the trip - less than fucking third class, tho. Pakis packed in buses like wetbacks, herded from the airport to the sites, ran around the rock a few times, then hustled back on the plane and gotten the fuck out.

But to a sincere practitioner of Islam, it may be the crummiest conditions to be found on the planet, but to them to touch the site where Mohammed made contact with their god makes the terrible journey worth it.(correct me if I am wrong with whether or not that is what Mecca signifies).
None the less, damn that government for hoarding all of their beauracratically secretive funds from honoring the most sacred space with what they should view as, in accordance with their faith, as a sacred people. The should be treated with respect, for crying out loud, they are followers of the same faith as you are!

:gets off soapbox:

[A Thing of Eternity]

Thing already posted the immediate thought I had : by the time humans are actually colonizing space, the Sunni & Shia will have either killed each other off, or some John Wayne American President will have bombed them all into submission. (If not, then it's like all the other things your crazy religion denies you - stay home.)

On the poor-Haji thing, the Saudi government has a massive program set up for aid to Muslims who can't afford the trip - less than fucking third class, tho. Pakis packed in buses like wetbacks, herded from the airport to the sites, ran around the rock a few times, then hustled back on the plane and gotten the fuck out.

But to a sincere practitioner of Islam, it may be the crummiest conditions to be found on the planet, but to them to touch the site where Mohammed made contact with their god makes the terrible journey worth it.(correct me if I am wrong with whether or not that is what Mecca signifies).
None the less, damn that government for hoarding all of their beauracratically secretive funds from honoring the most sacred space with what they should view as, in accordance with their faith, as a sacred people. The should be treated with respect, for crying out loud, they are followers of the same faith as you are!

:gets off soapbox:

Mecca is the site of the Kabbah, a big cubic building carved out of a meteorite. It was old even back in Mo's day, and the Islamic belief is that it was built by Abraham (the patriarch of Judaism Xianity and Islam) and his first son Ishmael, who was banished when Abraham eventually had a child with his wife (rather than his servant/slave).

So it symbolizes the roots of Islam all the way back to the roots of Judaism, making it even more significant than just a place where Mo" talked with god. There are some pretty holy sites of that nature too, but I think they're all in Israel.

[SandRider]

the space rock itself was being worshiped forever - Muhammad tied it into his version of
Abrahamic Monotheism because it was already considered a "holy" place by the previous
"pagans" - same way the Romans & Catholic Church sucked in all the previous "pagan"
mythology and holidays into their version ...

even tho the rock isn't an "iconic image", it's still an inanimate object, and the
Muslims are still worshiping it, no matter how they rationalize it ... same thing
with the Catholics and their idols of the Virgin & so forth ....

{BTW- I've softened my anti-religion slogan abit -
Adults who believe in Imaginary Friends are Disturbing ...}

[A Thing of Eternity]

Yup.

[SadisticCynic]

(Slightly off-topic: Xianity obviously refers to Christianity, but why X specifically? Is it because of the various denominations i.e. x = a variable?)

[A Thing of Eternity]

(Slightly off-topic: Xianity obviously refers to Christianity, but why X specifically? Is it because of the various denominations i.e. x = a variable?)

It's just an abreviation I've seen Sandchigger use, like Xmas instead of Christmas (though that gets confusing, because I personally use Xmas to refer to the secular holiday that happens to fall on and have most of the same rituals as Christmas!).

[SadisticCynic]

(Slightly off-topic: Xianity obviously refers to Christianity, but why X specifically? Is it because of the various denominations i.e. x = a variable?)

It's just an abreviation I've seen Sandchigger use, like Xmas instead of Christmas (though that gets confusing, because I personally use Xmas to refer to the secular holiday that happens to fall on and have most of the same rituals as Christmas!).

Guess I was just overcomplicating it! Thanks.

[SandRider]

nah, there's a logical, historical reason for it
(the answer is not "crossing out the Christ in Christmas" BTW)

can't recall it right now, but it's an old, old thing, maybe to do with the Greek ?

I think it is also tied into the fish symbol, which is also very old ....

if I get around to it, I'll try to find out; if Chig doesn't provide the answer before then ....

[A Thing of Eternity]

nah, there's a logical, historical reason for it
(the answer is not "crossing out the Christ in Christmas" BTW)

can't recall it right now, but it's an old, old thing, maybe to do with the Greek ?

I think it is also tied into the fish symbol, which is also very old ....

if I get around to it, I'll try to find out; if Chig doesn't provide the answer before then ....

It's crossing out the Christ in Christmas when I do it.

Seriously though, I was unaware that there was anything behind Xmas or Xian other than simply shortening the words.