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    Fremen Economics

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      Native inhabitants of Arrakis, descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers

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    Re: Re:

    Postby inhuien » 22 Jun 2009 10:58

    moreh_yeladim wrote:
    smugetsu wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:Is that more than a buttload?


    Depends...standard or metric buttload?

    African or European?

    You are talking about Swallows?
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby SandChigger » 22 Jun 2009 11:27

    The Swallow ... The Sign of True Love. :P
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby inhuien » 22 Jun 2009 11:33

    You're a Dirtry Pup. :P :P
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby Omphalos » 22 Jun 2009 11:35

    SandChigger wrote:The Swallow ... The Sign of True Love. :P


    I just told my wife that one last night.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby SandChigger » 22 Jun 2009 11:45

    Did she swa ... um, buy it? :)
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Jun 2009 11:57

    What's the difference between like and love? A spit or a swallow.

    What's the difference between pink an purple? The grip.

    What's the difference between "ahhhh" and "OHHHH!"? About two inches.

    I got a million of 'em...
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby Onasander » 08 May 2010 16:08

    There are many items the Fremen need that are not able to be made out of spice- boots, thumpers, material for windtraps, mining equipment (for the occasion when they are digging new shelters in a rockcliff).

    Even if they could locate the ore for making the above- the machinery is a bit too complex- unless there is a Ix like tribe out there in the desert with welding equipment and electrical generators.

    Plain and simple- they were dependent on the outside for the height of their population..... I would love to know how they got their materials for radical horticulture adapted to the extremes of Dune from Spice, Sand, Spice, Twigs, and Shit. They are a society under continuous attrition from nature and one another, and furthermore have CHOAM and the Harks to worry about..... you add their terraforming quest to the mix..... they are some big spenders.

    This being said- they appear to put much, much more emphasis on the group that can move, that can fight, that can reproduce- they lived a bit like Russian nihilist, with high emphasis on what was useful- and in a manner very similar to Juche- severe self reliance. It seems the only wealth that mattered to the individual was that you could carry on the back of a worm.... and what was property didn't extend much farther than that.... save in water banking. They none the less are astounding in the degree of redundency they built up- Stilgar's desire to retreat deeper and deeper into the desert- suggests advanced preparations in supplies and secondary locations...... more water traps, more stockpiles of thumpers- globelights, perhaps even more clothing- such as boots.

    I have my doubts the Stilsuits are made from all desert material.... of all of Spice's properties, water resistance and holding capacity isn't amongst them..... the stuff dilutes easily in water. I suspect all the parts none the less are found on planet- it would be all to easy to kill off the fremen by blockading a essential supply- and all too easy to convince the spice smugglers NOT to supply the Fremen with the parts they need to maintain it- the Fremen were the Smugglers main competitors and threat- it wouldn't take that big of a bribe to convince them not to help them.... if one was even needed. It's the only reason why I can figure the Fremen keep coming back to the city in the first place- they need stuff- silly simple stuff- and every planetary government allowed it because it was a safe and simple source of taxations, and seemed such a small triffling in allowing, and yet impossible to suppress..... off planet imports though are easy to repress.

    Gives you a hint at what the cities on arrakis) were manufacturing. Weld shops, leather workers, looms, stilsuit manufactures (for the city folk), distrubutors of raw materials for suits, material for upkeeping windtraps (deeply suspect the fremen were not dumb enough to order massive amounts of sheet metal, arrive in mass in the city, and be seen by military/police authorities walking out into the deep desert with it..... that's one of those Norm McDonald 'Note to Self' moments when a detective stops and thinks WTF is going on, gotta check up on this one. (I also can't imagine how many tiedowns and bungie cords it takes to carry the sheet metal on the back of a worm- I can see them under a tarp- and some hillbilly holding it and getting crushed or loosing a limb. This being said- smaller stuff like screws and handtools are going to be gotten legitimately in market and not via smuggling)
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby mrpsbrk » 06 Jun 2010 11:26

    Onasander wrote:Even if they could locate the ore for making the above- the machinery is a bit too complex- unless there is a Ix like tribe out there in the desert with welding equipment and electrical generators.


    Isn't it remarked how complex a technology the stillsuit is? The Fremem were NOT complex-tech deprived, they just had a different take on it. (Pretty sure they did have deep-desert factories though...)

    Onasander wrote:I have my doubts the Stilsuits are made from all desert material....


    Deserts are bad for finding water, and maybe foodstuff, but not for other kinds of "stuff". The biggest mine on current planet earth, IIRC, is in Chile in the midst of the desert.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby SandChigger » 06 Jun 2010 11:49

    Excellent! What a RARE meeting of minds this is! :laughing-rolling:

    mrpsbrk wrote:Deserts are bad for finding water, and maybe foodstuff

    MY GOD! Such piercing insight!

    The biggest mine on current planet earth, IIRC, is in Chile in the midst of the desert.

    Where, fortunately, they don't have to worry about Arrakeen sandworms. :laughing:
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 12:09

    SandChigger wrote:Excellent! What a RARE meeting of minds this is! :laughing-rolling:


    OH MY GOD!
    :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

    That is a thing of beauty... :tissue2:
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby Nekhrun » 06 Jun 2010 12:59

    mrpsbrk wrote:Deserts are bad for finding water...

    What the fuck are you talking about? I've seen Bear Grylls find water in many of the world's deserts. And Fremen might even be better at it than him.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby merkin muffley » 06 Jun 2010 15:32

    "Genius 'Round the World Stands Hand in Hand, and One Shock of Recognition Runs the Whole Circle 'Round"
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby D Pope » 07 Jun 2010 10:25

    I've always wondered what a fremen machine shop would look like & can't believe there would be many recognizable tools. With the things they're doing with lasers now, the equivelent of a turret lathe might fit into a fellows pocket.

    It's my opinion the stillsuits are primarily made from silicone- probably easy to find in the desert. I'm hoping that this isn't based on Lynchs movie.

    Are there any ideas out there about fuel? Kynes said one of the problems with having a lot of plants was a high oxygen content in the atmosphere, high enough to make hydrocarbons unstable? Glowglobes & lasguns seem to be powered by something roughly like electricity, but left to the imagination.

    I like the comaparison of spice to oil. What would be great would be to have a better description of the refining process. What's removed, separated, & wasted? I can totally believe spice fibers are like plastics, formerly a waste product that turns out to be as usefull as the stuff originally sought. While we're on the subject, how many forms of spice are there? Spice for filmbase, fiber for paper & textiles, the shaker of spice on the table at your local restaurant, blue liquid spice essance...

    Economically, I doubt there's a lot of thought given to wealth for it's own sake. Sure there's social standing & power, but it all seems more military as if the only real currency is the mission.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby D Pope » 07 Jun 2010 10:34

    Where do the fremen get thier food? It seems to me that would be the biggest import for a hidden population numbering in the tens of millions.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Jun 2010 11:20

    D Pope wrote:Where do the fremen get thier food? It seems to me that would be the biggest import for a hidden population numbering in the tens of millions.


    Some minor hunting, and I imagine they have crops growing in their sietch, assuming glowglobes give off enough light (or they could have special rooms with skylights for this purpose). Unless they live off fungus, which don't need light - this would be a decent way to use feces inside the sietch.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby D Pope » 07 Jun 2010 11:55

    My Dune copy is still missing but I remember Paul getting a morsel of bird flesh with grain & honey wrapped in a leaf & no mention of an agrarium in Jessicas nasal assessment. However, there are few limits to how big a hole a sietch could be... Crops for a hundred thousand or so? They did somthing- a sietch greenhouse might be the answer. Maybe in the Duniverse there's some really efficient, fast growing staples I can't imagine like no stalk corn, just a ten foot ear.

    Now that I think about it, that might help explain how they don't suffocate with the moisture seals in place. Lot of fremen for a sand snorkle kind of deal. Perhaps they also grow animals in an egg farm arrangement. Whatever the answer, it's got to be mobile or self sustaining, the fremen had no problem leaving the sietch empty in a hurry.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby MrFlibble » 07 Jun 2010 18:46

    I don't remember if the Fremen would buy/trade foodstuffs in the villages or towns?
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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jun 2010 19:20

    "They repair the weaving machinery," she said. "But it must be dismantled by
    tonight." She gestured at a tunnel branching to their left. "Through there and
    beyond, that's food processing and stillsuit maintenance." She looked at Paul.
    "Your suit looks new. But if it needs work, I'm good with suits. I work in the
    factory in season."

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    Re: Fremen Economics

    Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Aug 2014 22:41

    We've got to take into account that the Fremen economy must have shifted vastly in structure within Liet's lifetime. From the time Pardot got the Fremen to follow him and on, the Fremen collectively saved water in vast amounts owned by no one person, and seemed to focus all of their efforts into collecting enough spice for bribes to hide their activities and in constructing testing stations, dew collectors and other devices needed to further Pardot's plan for Arrakis. This combined communal goal didn't exist before Pardot came, and we have no way of knowing what the economy was like before that. We have no reason to believe there had previously been any combined goal uniting the sietches.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the Fremen had previously incorporated some kind of water oligarchy where there were 'wealthy' Fremen who had lots of water rings, and others who were great fighters and could gain status that way. We know that killing other Fremen for their water was taboo, but other than that we don't really know how their society worked before.

    Everything we do know is from the period after the entire Fremen society was working as one to realize Pardot's dream, and by then they seemed to be rationing things out so that all Fremen were minimally taken care of, but other than that all resources probably went towards bribes, manufacturing, and scouting.
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