The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

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    Native inhabitants of Arrakis, descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers

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Nicodemus
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The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby Nicodemus » 04 Mar 2008 02:23

I liked reading about them. While allot of thier lives aspects were straight forward, there were a few things about thier lives that were mentioned but never really explained.
Take for isntance, the Crysknife. The Crysknife was one of the prominent things that made a Fremen a Fremen. Aquiring one was next to impossible for a non-Fremen. That's why the Baron had such a high reward out for one in DUNE. His plan was to give it to Piter so he could infiltrate the Fremen on Arrakis, Piter after all already had the blue within blue eyes of Ibad due to his melange addiction.

Anyway...How did the Fremen get the worm teeth in the first place? After a worm dies they melt don't they? And I doubt the teeth were taken from LIVE worms either: Imagine?

Awe common Ranu, I got the teeth last time, it's your turn.

No it is not, but since I am such an honest person, I will play you for it!

OK Ranu, what's the game?

Guess how many water rings I have in my hand right now!

OK! Hmmmnnn...let's see...(Mumbling under his breath) 2?...too little. 6?..

Well?!?

Wait. I'm thinking.

That will take all day!

Silence!!! OK, I've got it....FIVE!!!

Wrong!

What?!?

It was 6!

How do I know if you didn't hide one?

Of COURSE I didn't hide one Shanzu. I told you, I am an HONEST man! OK, so it's time for you to pull some teeth from this old man. If he strirrs I will whistle!

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Skibum
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby Skibum » 21 May 2009 22:39

375 views, no comments, how sad.

With apologies, I feel what is depicted in Butlerian Jihad is reasonable. A worm is ridden to death and then the rider plucks a tooth out of it. Or they find a dead one. Yeah.


I realize this was posted years/months ago. Whatever. I want my post count to go up.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby Omphalos » 21 May 2009 23:27

Congratulations, Camper! Youve doubled your post count!

Must be summer break if we see our long lost OH brethren.

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Skibum
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby Skibum » 22 May 2009 19:01

Omphalos wrote:Congratulations, Camper! Youve doubled your post count!

Must be summer break if we see our long lost OH brethren.



Indeed it is summer break and I have time to read dune now.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby HarryCanyon » 04 May 2010 00:35

Most agree with the reasons, they are just a race you know and a unique kind of one.

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lotek
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby lotek » 04 May 2010 05:09

i am pretty sure there is a line somewhere that hints how they get that tooth.
And I don't think that worms "melt" either!!
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby A Little Galach » 04 May 2010 08:40

I think it would have been amusing if Piter had attempted to infiltrate the Fremen.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby MrFlibble » 04 May 2010 10:31

A Little Galach wrote:I think it would have been amusing if Piter had attempted to infiltrate the Fremen.

Being a Mentat, perhaps he could have pulled it off. The real question is how long he'd be able to remain undetected. Eyes of Ibad alone were not enough - surely he had the "water-fat" appearance for every Fremen to see.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby A Little Galach » 04 May 2010 15:36

MrFlibble wrote:
A Little Galach wrote:I think it would have been amusing if Piter had attempted to infiltrate the Fremen.

Being a Mentat, perhaps he could have pulled it off. The real question is how long he'd be able to remain undetected. Eyes of Ibad alone were not enough - surely he had the "water-fat" appearance for every Fremen to see.


I don't there was a chance in hell of it happening, and all the more because of his being a mentat. Weren't they wary of Mentats? Think back to how Duncan was possessed of so many admirable qualities: Fighting ability, charisma, good rugged looks, physical fitness, integrity & loyalty, intelligence, honesty, trustworthiness, etc. I think he needed to have all of those traits to be successful infiltrating the Fremen openly. He was an obvious outsider to them. Piter had only the fighting ability (although presumably not as much as Duncan -he wasn't going to be a match for a Sardaukar) and physical attributes. The rest he was lacking and not going to be able to mask from Fremen.

The Baron and Piter underestimated the Fremen in this regard and their plan here reflected that. I think it would have been a stark failure and I would have enjoyed FH writing it.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby Freakzilla » 04 May 2010 15:52

I think maybe the plan was for Piter to infiltrate the Atreides as a Fremen. The Harkonnens didn't even consider the Fremen until they brought spice production to a halt AFTER the defeat of the Atreides.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby trang » 04 May 2010 22:17

Piter was a "Twisted" Mentat, way different than the others. I think his demeanor would have given him away in a second to any fremen worth his water, would only have been about a page and they would have thrown him in a deathstill.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby MrFlibble » 05 May 2010 07:38

Freakzilla wrote:I think maybe the plan was for Piter to infiltrate the Atreides as a Fremen. The Harkonnens didn't even consider the Fremen until they brought spice production to a halt AFTER the defeat of the Atreides.

Hm, didn't the Atreides know how he looked like? In any case, this possibility did not occur to the Atreides when they learned of Harkonnens hunting for crysknives. On the other hand, there could have been no such plan on the Harkonnens' side at all, and the attepmt to obtain a crysknife had other motives behind it.

trang wrote:Piter was a "Twisted" Mentat, way different than the others. I think his demeanor would have given him away in a second to any fremen worth his water, would only have been about a page and they would have thrown him in a deathstill.

First, twisted Mentats were supposed to be more controllable than regular Mentats, if one is to believe what is said in Children of Dune:
Twisted mentats? The Tleilaxu persisted in this hoax, obviously. As a mentat himself, Idaho knew the fragile insecurity of Tleilaxu twisting. Great Houses which bought such mentats hoped to control them absolutely. Impossible! Even Piter de Vries, who'd served the Harkonnens in their assault on House Atreides, had maintained his own essential dignity, accepting death rather than surrender his inner core of selfdom at the end.

Jessica in her thoughts blames the Baron for making Piter into an amoral abomination, so I think Frank was consistent in this matter of twisted Mentats being designed as more cotrollable (and thus supposedly more reliable) tools.

Secondly, I assume that a Mentat, with his/her superior intellectual abilities, could be able to rather quickly adjust to a previously unknown social environment to remain undetected for some time. Or at least, had better chances at it than an untrained outsider.

A Little Galach wrote:I don't there was a chance in hell of it happening, and all the more because of his being a mentat. Weren't they wary of Mentats? Think back to how Duncan was possessed of so many admirable qualities: Fighting ability, charisma, good rugged looks, physical fitness, integrity & loyalty, intelligence, honesty, trustworthiness, etc. I think he needed to have all of those traits to be successful infiltrating the Fremen openly. He was an obvious outsider to them. Piter had only the fighting ability (although presumably not as much as Duncan -he wasn't going to be a match for a Sardaukar) and physical attributes. The rest he was lacking and not going to be able to mask from Fremen.

I hate to rehearse platitudes, but Piter had blue-in-blue eyes of spice addiction and thus could pose as a Fremen, whereas Duncan did not, and could not.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby A Little Galach » 05 May 2010 08:31

trang wrote:Piter was a "Twisted" Mentat, way different than the others. I think his demeanor would have given him away in a second to any fremen worth his water, would only have been about a page and they would have thrown him in a deathstill.



It would have been a good few pages though, I would have laughed out loud.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby A Little Galach » 05 May 2010 08:35

MrFlibble wrote:Secondly, I assume that a Mentat, with his/her superior intellectual abilities, could be able to rather quickly adjust to a previously unknown social environment to remain undetected for some time. Or at least, had better chances at it than an untrained outsider.

A Little Galach wrote:I don't there was a chance in hell of it happening, and all the more because of his being a mentat. Weren't they wary of Mentats? Think back to how Duncan was possessed of so many admirable qualities: Fighting ability, charisma, good rugged looks, physical fitness, integrity & loyalty, intelligence, honesty, trustworthiness, etc. I think he needed to have all of those traits to be successful infiltrating the Fremen openly. He was an obvious outsider to them. Piter had only the fighting ability (although presumably not as much as Duncan -he wasn't going to be a match for a Sardaukar) and physical attributes. The rest he was lacking and not going to be able to mask from Fremen.

I hate to rehearse platitudes, but Piter had blue-in-blue eyes of spice addiction and thus could pose as a Fremen, whereas Duncan did not, and could not.


I look at Mentats as borderline Autistic and the Fremen as borderline sixth-sense in terms of reading people. They would have figured him out quick. Piter would probably fool me and you, but that's about it.

My opinion of course.

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby SandChigger » 05 May 2010 08:52

MrFlibble wrote:Secondly, I assume that a Mentat, with his/her superior intellectual abilities, could be able to rather quickly adjust to a previously unknown social environment to remain undetected for some time. Or at least, had better chances at it than an untrained outsider.

What about the language aspect? ;)

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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby MrFlibble » 05 May 2010 09:02

The Fremen would probably be quite quick at detecting an outsider, no doubt. On the other hand, what if the reverence they paid to cryskinves would make them overlook some important signs that the infiltrator was an outsider? Perhaps the possession of a crysknife coupled with the eyes of Ibad would give Piter a chance.

Anyhoo, this is pure speculation. As I said above, there could have boon no infiltration plan whatsoever, or it was yet another decoy - to seed distrust between the Atreides and the Fremen by making the Atreides suspect that spies or saboteurs might be planted among the Fremen.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby lotek » 05 May 2010 09:21

well we know that at the time when the Harkonnens consider infiltrating the Fremen the Arrakis natives are not really thought worth of consideration are they?
Everyone believes they are but a few, and apart from the Atreides no one is paying attention to them until it is too late

So my question would be WHY inflitrate a band of desert ragtags?

The Baron is known for his cunning but also his masterful use of resources, so why bother sending your personal mentat(his closest advisor)on a intel mission amongst desert rats?
The fact that itis Piter he considers sending would anywhere else mean it is a high priority secret mission no?

But it seems that when the Baron gets that Imperial bollocking about the fighting qualities of the Fremen he looks like he is really suprised
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby SadisticCynic » 05 May 2010 16:50

Is it possible the Baron intended for Piter to infiltrate not the wild Fremen but those who live in the villages? Arrakis natives may have been all the same to Vladimir. In this case Piter may have a greater chance of blending in, either as an Arrakeen resident or a wild Fremen in from the desert (which explains the crysknife). In terms of the second, it seems unlikely the villagers would have picked up so easily on his pretence; they probably leave wild Fremen well alone.

But I might be mixing up some Dune Messiah elements in there...
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby Freakzilla » 05 May 2010 18:09

SadisticCynic wrote:Is it possible the Baron intended for Piter to infiltrate not the wild Fremen but those who live in the villages? Arrakis natives may have been all the same to Vladimir. In this case Piter may have a greater chance of blending in, either as an Arrakeen resident or a wild Fremen in from the desert (which explains the crysknife). In terms of the second, it seems unlikely the villagers would have picked up so easily on his pretence; they probably leave wild Fremen well alone.

But I might be mixing up some Dune Messiah elements in there...


I think he may have been able to pull that off.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby lotek » 06 May 2010 06:56

fair enough but I don't think that is the case, and this for two reasons:

1) why bother infiltrate the pan and graben folk? They seemed pretty much tamed and didn't pose any threat(see Paul's comment on how they have awakened when the Sardaukar do a bit of pillaging, thus infuriating an otherwise submissive population)

2) the crysknife is the mark of the wild Fremen, only they carry one(see when they realize the import of the hand fighting they can learn from Paul, since they do not bring a crysknife when they go into towns), so you wouldn't need one to pass a one of the city folk.

So that only leaves the deep desert fremen.

What is the chronology here?
I mean does this stuff about infiltrating the Fremen happen before Paul has changed the Fremen or not?
That would make a huge difference in motives for the Baron.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby SadisticCynic » 06 May 2010 12:11

lotek wrote:fair enough but I don't think that is the case, and this for two reasons:

1) why bother infiltrate the pan and graben folk? They seemed pretty much tamed and didn't pose any threat(see Paul's comment on how they have awakened when the Sardaukar do a bit of pillaging, thus infuriating an otherwise submissive population)

2) the crysknife is the mark of the wild Fremen, only they carry one(see when they realize the import of the hand fighting they can learn from Paul, since they do not bring a crysknife when they go into towns), so you wouldn't need one to pass a one of the city folk.

So that only leaves the deep desert fremen.

What is the chronology here?
I mean does this stuff about infiltrating the Fremen happen before Paul has changed the Fremen or not?
That would make a huge difference in motives for the Baron.


I meant that Piter could pretend to be a wild Fremen (with a crysknife to prove it) who was in from the desert (getting some polish maybe? :) ), not one of the pan and graben folk. If he infiltrated them this way he would be left alone, would be close to Arrakeen and could keep an eye on the Atreides.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby lotek » 06 May 2010 12:17

could work but then again no real wild Fremen would come to the towms with a crysknife, their most sacred weapon
So a Fremen wearing one would instantly be suspiscious wouldn't he?

And I never understood that the goal was to spy on the Atreides though, I thought that needing a crysknife was a mandatory thing to infiltrate a sietch :)

which brings me to my previous question, why would they be curious about the Fremen if they thought them of no importance?
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby MrFlibble » 07 May 2010 08:24

lotek wrote:And I never understood that the goal was to spy on the Atreides though, I thought that needing a crysknife was a mandatory thing to infiltrate a sietch :)

True.
lotek wrote:which brings me to my previous question, why would they be curious about the Fremen if they thought them of no importance?

There might have been several reasons. First, as I mentioned above, the plan could have been to make the Atreides believe Piter was going to infiltrate the Fremen, as a matter of distraction. After all, the Atreides did not know how and when the Harkonnens would strike, and it was natural for the latter to feed false information about their plans.

Secondly, I think it is possible that Piter worked out the real power of the Fremen (just like Thufir did later), but for some reason he was withholding this information from the Baron. In this case, perhaps he had a plan of his own we will never know.

And the third option is that while the Harkonnens underestimated the Fremen on a large scale, they still thought it possible to use them against the Atreides, especially since it was known that the Atreides sought to ally themselves with the Fremen.
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby lotek » 07 May 2010 08:37

yeah I could go with the third one, IM(A)O it's the one that fits best what info we have.
The only thing that troubles me still is the fact that Piter as a Mentat is the closest adviser to the Baron(we never see him planning with anyone else, there's the occasional confidence to Rabban and Feyd_and of course later Thufir replacing Piter)
So why risk his most valuable counsel(and Mentat without which he doesn't like to be)on a secondary plot?
Is the plan with the Emperor set at this point? If yes it definitely means Piter, the Baron or both suspect "something" as they'd already know how to destroy the Atreides, why risk Piter on a fool's errand?

Shit I need the book for reference I am getting lost in timelines here!
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Re: The Fremen were some of the most interesting characters

Postby MrFlibble » 07 May 2010 09:07

Perhaps infiltrating the Fremen was a secondary plan or a possibility for a plan. As for the Baron sending his right-hand man on a potentially suicide mission, remember how he later sent Thufir to infiltrate Muad'Dib's surroundings and assassinate him.
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