Were the Fremen used

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inhuien
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby inhuien » 24 Jan 2013 07:42

Not if you're equally a prick to both sexes, it just mean your a prick, the term could taken a sexist objection but not necessary the act of being one.
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lotek
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby lotek » 24 Jan 2013 07:44

I was told once "everyone knows you're a massive sexist"

It was not a compliment on my size then.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby inhuien » 24 Jan 2013 07:53

And that persons agenda was.....
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby lotek » 24 Jan 2013 08:08

It was my boss.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jan 2013 08:12

inhuien wrote:I can admit to not interacting completely the same with males and females, Are you incapable of such honesty or do you just get a kick from being a prick sometimes?


You have too, men and women are not the same...

If y'all want to continue discussion I suggest you make a topic in POLITICS!
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inhuien
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby inhuien » 24 Jan 2013 08:41

Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:I can admit to not interacting completely the same with males and females, Are you incapable of such honesty or do you just get a kick from being a prick sometimes?


You have too, men and women are not the same...

If y'all want to continue discussion I suggest you make a topic in POLITICS!

They're be Dragons there, But I get your point, Lotek shut up.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby lotek » 24 Jan 2013 08:47

I only agree because you're not a woman.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Jan 2013 09:26

:lol:
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby distrans » 25 Jan 2013 16:22

inhuien wrote:Not if you're equally a prick to both sexes, it just mean your a prick, the term could taken a sexist objection but not necessary the act of being one.





have you noticed that the english language is decidedly absent in derogatory words and phrases indicative of the male gender?

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby inhuien » 25 Jan 2013 18:10

distrans wrote:
inhuien wrote:Not if you're equally a prick to both sexes, it just mean your a prick, the term could taken a sexist objection but not necessary the act of being one.


have you noticed that the english language is decidedly absent in derogatory words and phrases indicative of the male gender?


Yes of course and your point is, that the language is sexist? What's your speculation?
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Omphalos » 25 Jan 2013 18:24

distrans wrote:
inhuien wrote:Not if you're equally a prick to both sexes, it just mean your a prick, the term could taken a sexist objection but not necessary the act of being one.





have you noticed that the english language is decidedly absent in derogatory words and phrases indicative of the male gender?


Stop being a giggolo dick-head.

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby distrans » 25 Jan 2013 23:02

had to throw your pussy on the ropes eh?

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby lotek » 26 Jan 2013 05:18

boring troll is boring
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby leagued » 29 Jan 2013 22:05

Likely the BG had originally planned to create an Atreides-Harkonnen power block cemented by the Feyd-Alia marriage (I'm using the name "Alia" here to refer to the Paulette previously mentioned). Between the wealth of the Harkonnens and the respect Leto had earned in the Landsraad, such a block would have been one of the most politically powerful forces in the Imperium whether or not they were then married into the Corrino.
The BG were also keeping the Corrino house in a precarious position by denying Shaddam IV an heir. He would have been in a weak position at the time the BG's KH was born into a position of great power. the BG KH, as the head of the Atreides-Harkonnen power block would have been the most powerful political force in the Imperium, especially with the BG working behind the scenes to further manipulate the other Houses. The Emperor would have been marginalized or would have been manipulated into doing whatever the BG wanted of him, which may have included allowing the KH to marry into the Corrino family and having Shaddam abdicate to him or just dying.
The threat against the BG KH would have been from other Houses fearful of the power block created by the Atreides-Harkonnen alliance before the KH came to power. (And this is in fact what happened to cause Leto's downfall in Dune really). A strong power is always going to make others fearful of losing their own power and might even cause an alliance of the other Houses against them (ie the alliance of Greek city-states against Persia or the Athenian alliance against Sparta or any number of other examples where a coalition is formed from amongst roughly coeval entities- even the unification of Germany is similar in its effects). But between the bribes the Harkonnens could apply, the manipulations of the BG, and the political goodwill built up by Leto the BG-Atreides-Harkonnen bloc could have assuaged the rest of the Houses long enough for the KH to come to power and cement their position.

Jessica having a son too early prevented the BG from manipulating Atreides and Harkonnen to "seal the breach" at the same time that Shaddam IV became fearful of the growing power of Leto in the Landsraad (and the rumors of the Atreides men trained to within a hair of Sardakaur ability) and agreed to help the Harkonnen revenge. The BG ended up abandoning the Atreides because preventing the Corrino-Harkonnen attack would have cost them too much even if they had been able to pull it off.

At least, that's my take on it. This, of course, is one of the great things about the original Dune. FH didn't tell us all of this; he gave us just enough hints that we have to fill in the rest on our own, allowing for endless decades of debate about it. This is why a book remains relevant for so long.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jan 2013 07:50

I don't have a problem with any of that. Except...

leagued wrote:BG KH


Using the term 'Bene Gesserit' to describe the Kwizats Haderach is redundant. The KH was by definition a BG. Sorry for nit picking.

However, I don't think Leto I would have let his daughter marry a Harkonnen, just look at how he responded to the Baron's peace offering. I don't think the BG were influential enough at that point to guarantee Paulette's safety in House Harkonnen or Feyd's in House Atreides. Maybe if Paulette became a full RM before the marriage, she could imprint him but that could take 50 years. I don't think Shaddam would have sat by and watched the two Houses consolidate power.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby leagued » 30 Jan 2013 08:06

I was just using it as a short-hand for BG-controlled KH.

I agree that the difficulty of convincing Leto to go along with the scheme would have been the most difficult part of the entire proposal I laid out, and I also can't think of any lever that the BG could have used on either side of the feud to bring them together. The Baron might have been convinced purely out of his own desire to put a Harkonnen on the throne- he expressed interest in doing exactly that in Dune. But would the BG balk at assassinating Leto? Or allowing others to do so if they could then find a more easily manipulated ruler of House Atreides to fill his place? The Baron would probably have been happy to take in Leto's orphaned daughter so that he could look magnanimous and forgiving in front of the Landsraad after he had "settled" with Leto.
The more I look at the problem the more it seems to me that Duke Leto was far more ruinous toward the BG's plans than I had previously given him credit for. (There's some tendency to look at him in a pitying light, but I think that devalues him to a degree). He got Jessica to fall in love with him and conceive a son, he garnered enough clout in the Landsraad to destabilize the entire political situation by convincing Shaddam IV of the need to ally with the Harkonnens, he did a third thing that was also awesome that I can't think of right now.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jan 2013 08:50

Leto would have been needed for his influence in the Landsraad. If the BG assassinated him the Harkonnens would be the obvious suspect... there goes your alliance.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Jan 2013 08:52

Now, if Jessica had been an obidient little BG Breeder and not fallen in love, they could have used her to influence him and we wouldn't be discussing this.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby leagued » 30 Jan 2013 09:01

The Harkonnen would most definitely have been the obvious suspects, but a pliant enough client ruler might be forced to overlook that. Like you said, though rephrased to fit my new Leto-is-the-best philosphy, if Leto hadn't been so awesome as to turn Jessica then we wouldn't be discussing this b/c FH would either have written what happened or not written the book at all. One assumes the BG had some plan to get Paulette and Feyd together and that RM Mohiam at least thought it would be used to "seal the breach" between the Houses and they aren't above using whatever means they had to do make that happen.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 01 Feb 2013 23:05

leagued wrote: One assumes the BG had some plan to get Paulette and Feyd together and that RM Mohiam at least thought it would be used to "seal the breach" between the Houses and they aren't above using whatever means they had to do make that happen.


That was the BG's plan, but it would've flopped anyway. Both the Harkonnens and the Atreides would be dower at the wedding, and that would lead to bad luck (like a Sicilian wedding). Paulette would be forced to clean after the Harkonnens like Cinderella, and Feyd would be off sleeping with the slave women (or Lady Fenring, if Feyd fails to produce a girl with Paulette). Mohiam's claim that the birth of a Paulette would end the feud is wishful thinking. The Floating Fat Man will always want the Atreides dead, even if he gains a BG trained Atreides step daughter from his unrealistic alliance with Duke Leto. I think Paulette would still find Fremen more attractive than Harkonnens, even if Feyd is the prettiest man the Harkonnens ever produced.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Naïve mind » 02 Feb 2013 03:58

Dune is fairly fresh on my mind, and you're giving the Baron too little credit. He just wants the feud ended, and killing the Atreides line is the most expedient (and permanent) means to do so.

It's Leto who finds the Baron (a power-hungry slaver, torturer and rapist) too morally repugnant to make peace with.

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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Jodorowsky's Acolyte » 02 Feb 2013 04:34

Naïve mind wrote:Dune is fairly fresh on my mind, and you're giving the Baron too little credit. He just wants the feud ended, and killing the Atreides line is the most expedient (and permanent) means to do so.

It's Leto who finds the Baron (a power-hungry slaver, torturer and rapist) too morally repugnant to make peace with.


You're absolutely right. That's another factor which Mohiam and the other BG just don't take account into: the fact that Leto would never marry Paulette to the Harkonnens, or make peace with them. Unless Jessica were to use the Voice on him, but they failed to take into account the idea of her falling in love with him.

It's as if the BG were so used to manipulating the more predictable and basic minded Landsraad aristocracy, they were unable to control those rare human individuals who were unpredictable both in intelligence and emotion. And Leto and Jessica were those very upredictable human individuals. Nice going, BG.

What is it about the Harkonnen bloodline which the BG so desperately what to breed with again? They already bred an Atreides with a Harkonnen. Why breed an Atreides-Harkonnen back to a Harkonnen?
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby lotek » 02 Feb 2013 06:17

Maybe the breach isn't what you think it is.
Why would the BG care if the H and A make friends, really ?

All they care about is the KH, the rest is irrelevant in their eyes.
If Leto was so important, why ''for the father nothing''' ? Because he already missed his chance, Paul meant war, not love (or at least offspring produced).

I think Frank meant for the reader to have that obvious line of reasoning, hiding in plain sight that the KH is the fulcrum, he can't take without giving nor give without taking. I think it was meant to seal the breach between the male and female side of OM, and beyond that between man and woman.

Frank wrote Dune with Bev's influence, we know that, and it wouldn't surprise me they hid that as part of the hidden message of the whole story.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Feb 2013 07:09

I think the BG wanted the KH on the throne. The Harkonnens had the CHOAM clout and The Atreides had influence in the Landsraad plus a potential fighting force.
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Re: Were the Fremen used

Postby leagued » 02 Feb 2013 07:13

lotek wrote:Maybe the breach isn't what you think it is.
Why would the BG care if the H and A make friends, really ?

All they care about is the KH, the rest is irrelevant in their eyes.
If Leto was so important, why ''for the father nothing''' ? Because he already missed his chance, Paul meant war, not love (or at least offspring produced).

I think Frank meant for the reader to have that obvious line of reasoning, hiding in plain sight that the KH is the fulcrum, he can't take without giving nor give without taking. I think it was meant to seal the breach between the male and female side of OM, and beyond that between man and woman.

Frank wrote Dune with Bev's influence, we know that, and it wouldn't surprise me they hid that as part of the hidden message of the whole story.


I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning per se- I mainly find these to be separate issues. I agree that the BG write off Leto because he missed his chance as you put it, but I still tend to think that "seal the breach" refers to the Hark-Atr feud and not to the KH male-female link. Otherwise, why would Mohiam be so upset about the loss of the Feyd-Paulette marriage? They need more than just a KH, they need a controlled KH and they would prefer to have him placed into a beneficial political environment- and I postulated that that meant at the head of a Hark-Atr power bloc.
It doesn't make sense for Mohiam to lament the lack of ability to "seal the breach" with Paulette unless its a chance that she considers lost- and she already accepts the possibility of Paul becoming a KH. And still the BG are ready to abandon Paul! They don't expend all their efforts to protect/nurture all possible KHs which, to me, implies that they want to arrange for a KH to come about in a situation that they control to reap the most possible benefits.
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