Fremen & SPICE

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    Native inhabitants of Arrakis, descendants of the Zensunni Wanderers

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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Sep 2010 16:36

This is great, someone should email this to KJA. :lol: Might clear a few things up for him...

In regards to the stunted worm vs giant worm, I see no point in differentiating these. They're just "adult" versions of the species at various sizes due to age and environmental conditions, as far as I know.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandRider » 08 Sep 2010 17:15

I think there is a need to atleast mention and try to show the different roles ...

f'instance, the stunted worms kept by fremen for the production of the Water of Life
is a separate issue from the spice-cycle on the open desert ...

and what is the difference between the Water of Live and the melange harvested for export ?
should these be treated as two related-but-separate substances ?
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby Freakzilla » 08 Sep 2010 17:46

SandRider wrote:I think there is a need to atleast mention and try to show the different roles ...

f'instance, the stunted worms kept by fremen for the production of the Water of Life
is a separate issue from the spice-cycle on the open desert ...


They aren't domesticated, they live in the Minor Erg and I think it's safe to assume their life cycle is the same.

and what is the difference between the Water of Live and the melange harvested for export ?
should these be treated as two related-but-separate substances ?


The WoL is the dying exhalation of the drowned Stunted Worm and is poisonous.

The melange that is harvested is the result of a spice cycle and is refined.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby inhuien » 09 Sep 2010 11:53

Frank Herbert in Dune wrote:This "water-stealer" died by the millions in each spice-blow. A five-degree
change in temperature could kill it. The few survivors entered a semidormant
cyst-hibernation to emerge in six years as small (about three meters long)
sandworms. Of these, only a few avoided their larger brothers and pre-spice
water pockets to emerge into maturity as the giant shai-hulud. (Water is
poisonous to shai-hulud as the Fremen had long known from drowning the rare
"stunted worm" of the Minor Erg to produce the awareness-spectrum narcotic they
call Water of Life. The "stunted worm" is a primitive form of shai-hulud that
reaches a length of only about nine meters.)
Now they had the circular relationship: little maker to pre-spice mass;
little maker to shai-hulud; shai-hulud to scatter the spice upon which fed
microscopic creatures called sand plankton; the sand plankton, food for shai-
hulud, growing, burrowing, becoming little makers.

And all these years I've thought that the stunted Worms were kept stunted by their living conditions rather than their genetics, cheers chaps.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2010 11:59

inhuien wrote:
Frank Herbert in Dune wrote:This "water-stealer" died by the millions in each spice-blow. A five-degree
change in temperature could kill it. The few survivors entered a semidormant
cyst-hibernation to emerge in six years as small (about three meters long)
sandworms. Of these, only a few avoided their larger brothers and pre-spice
water pockets to emerge into maturity as the giant shai-hulud. (Water is
poisonous to shai-hulud as the Fremen had long known from drowning the rare
"stunted worm" of the Minor Erg to produce the awareness-spectrum narcotic they
call Water of Life. The "stunted worm" is a primitive form of shai-hulud that
reaches a length of only about nine meters.)
Now they had the circular relationship: little maker to pre-spice mass;
little maker to shai-hulud; shai-hulud to scatter the spice upon which fed
microscopic creatures called sand plankton; the sand plankton, food for shai-
hulud, growing, burrowing, becoming little makers.

And all these years I've thought that the stunted Worms were kept stunted by their living conditions rather than their genetics, cheers chaps.


Well, the Minor Erg is a sandbox compared to the Tanzerouft. So their stunted size probably is a result of their living conditions.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby inhuien » 09 Sep 2010 12:19

AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH, So was I right or wrong. :)

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby Freakzilla » 09 Sep 2010 12:22

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby inhuien » 09 Sep 2010 12:26

Holy Carp, Batman.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandRider » 09 Sep 2010 14:26

that reminds me of a fantastic kid's book from the 70's about a boy who gets a goldfish,
and keeps feeding it and it keeps growing - he puts in a washtub, then mom's bathtub, then
the city pool and something else ... don't remember ... seems like the old man from the pet
shop that told him not to overfeed the fish shows up and sprinkles some "majic dust" on it
and it returns to normal size so there can be a happy ending ...

have no idea of the title, haven't thought about that in many, many years ... it was really
good tho, explained all that appropriate-habitat-size biology to my boys in about ten minutes ...



also: being old now, I sometimes forget the evolving nature of our common language, so -
NB4 all the "happy ending" remarks that went thru y'all's heads up there ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SadisticCynic » 09 Sep 2010 19:24

( :oops: You're way ahead of me though; what do you mean by 'NB4'? Is it 'end before'?)
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandRider » 09 Sep 2010 21:59

really ? I have to define chanspeak to a young'un like you?

damn, I am hip ...

NB4 = "in before"

a way of cutting off all the common, obvious juvenile comments that will surely follow ...

NB4 "that's what she said", for example.

also used to let too-slow pedophiles know you snagged the illegal pix before the mods removed it ...
"NB4 404!"
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 09 Sep 2010 22:06

SandRider wrote:& Chigger, I think it would help this project if you'd list out the spice cycle as you understand it
in a simple, bullet-point format ...

How about another visual format:

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Note that spice blows are actually more spice BURPS than real explosions involving combustion. There are significant differences in temperature and pressure between the original location of the pre-spice mass and the surface, however, and it is this massive change in their environment that "shell-shocks" and kills most of the sandtrout carried to the surface during the "spice belch".

If we admit what FH says in the McNelly interview, the new spice (once created from the drying pre-spice mass) acts as a catalyst in prompting the sandtrout which survived to form the cysts from which new sandworms emerge.

Btw, re the interview again:
1969 McNelly interview here:
http://tau.solahpmo.com/viewtopic.php?f=615&t=1218

WM: Spermatic material...

FH : The spice as I conceived it was necessary for the development from, let's say, the pupil stage.

WM: Yes.

FH: For him to go beyond the pupil stage, they had to have to be in the presence of the spice. That's the way I conceived it.

Note that McNelly mis-transcribed here: it should be pupal.

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Sep 2010 22:16

Now THAT is awesome.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby aethereon » 10 Sep 2010 07:05

Sweet.

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 10 Sep 2010 08:53

I generally like to err on the side of overkill. ;)


There are some interesting gaps—like where the sand plankton come from—and inconsistencies: Leto's pre-worm body fissioned into sandtrout when exposed to the waters of the Idaho but the stunted worms would vomit up Water of Life when drowned with no mention of a similar fission.

Worms emitted odors of spice and Leto's pre-worm body produced whatever spice equivalent his addicted human component required as well as exuded the concentrated liquid substance Leto used to sensitize the later Atreides to his Golden Path, but nowhere in the originals is there any suggestion that the worms produce the spice found on the surface and harvested by humans. (The suggestion that they produced subsurface "veins" of spice after the hybridization with Leto is one of the more stupid ideas in the "Dune 7" duology and one of the best indicators of how little some people understand Dune.)

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby grandmastercrafter » 10 Sep 2010 11:08

SandChigger wrote:I generally like to err on the side of overkill. ;)

There are some interesting gaps—like where the sand plankton come from—and inconsistencies: Leto's pre-worm body fissioned into sandtrout when exposed to the waters of the Idaho but the stunted worms would vomit up Water of Life when drowned with no mention of a similar fission.

Your work is superb. Just awesome. That chart is remarkable. :clap:
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 10 Sep 2010 13:26

There's also a potential problem with the fact that the spice blow usually attracts the adult worm in whose territory it occurs...

It presumably takes a certain amount of time for the sun & air to dry the pre-spice mass and effect whatever biochemical changes occur to transform it into the spice. During the same time any sandtrout that survived the blow would presumably be recovering from the shock and preparing to initiate the "encysting" process once the spice was available (assuming it really acts as a catalyst in that process, as hinted at in the McNelly interview with FH).

The problem is with the adult worm coming to the scene. We know that the worms eventually spread the spice around and that this feeds the sand plankton upon which the worms themselves feed. Obviously they don't immediately rush in right after the blow because that would interfere with the formation of the spice and "worm egg" cysts [my term again, like "shell-shocked" sandtrout], and the Fremen would never find spice sands.

So, how long do they hold back, and what conditions the behavior? ;)

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SadisticCynic » 10 Sep 2010 15:12

Just a thought...

Is there anything on how far away a worm can detect vibrations?

I was just thinking that the spice blow could make some noise, and perhaps several noises which would attract a worm in the vicinity. Then, if a worm is not close enough to detect the vibrations, the encysting process can occur without interruption (assuming a worm doesn't stumble across the cyst at some time during the six-year cycle). This would allow for both scenarios i.e. those in which the encysting process occurs and those in which the worm comes and scatters the spice.

On the other hand I suppose if the worm came due to the noise of the blow (it's so tempting to say explosion) then there may not be enough time for the spice to 'ferment'.

:think:
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 12 Sep 2010 21:50

How/what do you mean, for "the spice to ferment"?

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SadisticCynic » 13 Sep 2010 08:49

I may have worded that a little awkwardly; I mean that the pre-spice mass has to dry out once it's blown.

I also kinda figured that some reactions may have to take place e.g oxidation but I'm probably not particularly justified in that belief.
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 13 Sep 2010 09:30

OK, that's cool. Agreed on both points, was just checking. :)

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby aethereon » 06 Oct 2010 00:04

Not a single alteration to the newest demonstration after several weeks? It must be infallible.

Disappointment, elation, and inspiration. Sweet.

Hell of a job, Chig.

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 06 Oct 2010 01:07

Sorry... I was still back in the States and got busy frying other sandtrout. :oops:

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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandRider » 06 Oct 2010 22:45

yeah, I can't be bother with back-scrolling ... WTF were we talking about ?

is this the spice-cycle chart thread ?
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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Re: Fremen & SPICE

Postby SandChigger » 07 Oct 2010 03:09

SandRider wrote:is this the spice-cycle chart thread ?

No, no no, that's two over ----> that-a way.

This is the mutant alien titty bar thread. :pray:


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