"My multigalactic empire"


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Laphtiya
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Post by Laphtiya »

SandChigger wrote:Oh, pooh, I forgot about that:

Could they really have one million ships devoted just to exploration with spice being such a limited commodity? No surely not.... :cry:



:lol:
Not sure if it has been said yet, but lets not forget that they don't need the spice to fold space. Only to "see" a safe passage through fold space user their prescience abailities. So I am sure that in 10'000 years since the spice has been recovered. Lets not forget that they wouldnt use the massive heighliners to explore, they were simply for trade and transportation. They might have smaller and more efficiant ships for folding space between galaxies. When your looking for a new source of the spice why limit yourself to one Galaxy.

There was something siad about the co-ords not being known, but again they use Prescience and their mathimatical skills which the Guild was built upon to plot a safe passage to their desired target. So whats to say they don't point a really advanced telescope to a far off star system/galaxy and work out the mathimatical equation needed to plot a course?
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Post by trang »

Frank had such a way of condensing things into short to the point statements and never felt the need to explain everything. I luv that. So following his method thats how I see it.

Shaddam was Emperor of the Known Universe. Universe as we define it:

"The totality of matter, energy, and space, including the Solar System, the galaxies, and the contents of the space between the galaxies."

I think that pretty much says that pre-leto II, the Imperium was multi galactic.

Obviously if Frank had lived longer He could have written about it, but I guess He felt it wasnt as strong a point as others.

Brian and Kevinarse would probably produce starcharts of every habitable planet in the imperium if they could sell it for money. I dont think that would happen, so dont expect the twits to do it.

A book on the Corrino empire and rule would have been interesting, but they would jsut screw it up.

I just look for the simplest Explanation first before going deep.

just my thoughts anyway,
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Post by Laphtiya »

trang wrote:A book on the Corrino empire and rule would have been interesting, but they would jsut screw it up.
They would just copy paste and change StarWars to Dune
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Post by GamePlayer »

SandChigger wrote:The point is development through time. I'm questioning the need for the assumption that the pre-Leto Imperium was multigalactic as well. The Leto quote is from his journals discovered in Dar-es-Balat and occurs early in GEoD. Earlier in the same epigraph he states that he was "born Leto Atreides II more than three thousand standard years ago, measuring from the moment when I cause these words to be printed." That indicates that it is toward the end of his reign and life.

Up until this point in the books, FH never uses the word "galaxy" except this in Dune:
"You speak too casually of Salusa Secundus," Hawat said.

"It's a penal colony," the Baron said. "The worst riff-raff in the galaxy are sent to Salusa Secundus. What else do we need to know?"
In the galaxy. Not "in this galaxy" or "in the three/twelve/twenty galaxies". Not conclusive of course, but a hint. (Edit: I see Freak has already mentioned this. My interpretation is exactly opposite.)

If the Imperium was not multigalactic, Leto could have made it so in 3,000 years. Having human settlements in other galaxies to act as springboards for the Scattering would make sense.

There is no definite statement in the first three books either way. So we have two assumptions. What does the assumption that the Imperium was multigalactic really get you?
That's all I was asking. Like I posted, it's a fair enough interpretation, but is by no means the only one nor necessarily the most correct.

Much like space travel, there's a lack of specific detail on the form and size of the empire. Until an explicit statement was written by Frank to indicate whether the empire was in more than one galaxy, all we had was the impression given to us by Frank's writing. Frank uses "universe" all the time, so it gives the impression that if not universally pervasive the Imperium at the least was described as something beyond our own galactic cradle. Frank maintained technical consistency in his books so I've no reason to believe he didn't know exactly what he was talking about.

If I may be bold enough, the scattering itself is really irrelevant. Whether within a scenario where the empire is mono-galactic or multi-galactic, all the scattering requires is exodus to any unexplored frontier, galaxies or deep space alike.

As for dialog, there are just as many examples, if not more, where characters (Paul, Jessica, etc) use the term "universe" where "galaxy" would have been more appropriate if the empire were mono-galactic. Again, it's an area where interpretation comes into play, which is why I was curious why my interpretation was somehow invalid based on nothing more than opinion. In the absence of any specific details or a strong theme to indicate the opposite, Frank's vernacular for the character's speech during most of Dune and Leto's LATER statement indicate multi-galactic without a pre/post distinction. It may not be for everyone, but my interpretation is valid and unified with canon.
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Post by Signo »

From CH:D, the chapter whose epigraph starts with "Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit..." :

"Infinite numbers game." Odrade stepped accross a broken curb. "That should be repaired. We've been playing the infinity game since we learned to jump Foldspace."
There was no joy in Bellonda. "It's not a game!"
Odrade could appreciate Bellonda's feelings. We have never seen empty space. Always more galaxies. Tam's right. It's daunting when you focus on that Golden Path.
"Infinity Paradox." Odrade spoke to Tamalane as they passed a storeroom being emptied of large transparent cubes. Preserved peaches.
"What's evolving out there?" Tamalane demanded. A question they could not answer. Ask what Infinity might produce and the only possible answer was, "Anything."
Any good, any evil; any god, any devil.
"What if the Honoured Matres are fleeing something?" Odrade asked. "Interesting possibility?"
"These speculations are useless," Bellonda muttered. "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many . . . or even an infinite number of expanding and collapsing bubbles."
"Did the Tyrant understand this any better than we do?" Tamalane asked.
Mostly p. 126 on mine. You're welcome.

Also, Hi!
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Post by SandRider »

Welcome, Signo. Your Water is Ours.
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

Signo wrote:From CH:D, the chapter whose epigraph starts with "Laws to suppress tend to strengthen what they would prohibit..." :

"Infinite numbers game." Odrade stepped accross a broken curb. "That should be repaired. We've been playing the infinity game since we learned to jump Foldspace."
There was no joy in Bellonda. "It's not a game!"
Odrade could appreciate Bellonda's feelings. We have never seen empty space. Always more galaxies. Tam's right. It's daunting when you focus on that Golden Path.
"Infinity Paradox." Odrade spoke to Tamalane as they passed a storeroom being emptied of large transparent cubes. Preserved peaches.
"What's evolving out there?" Tamalane demanded. A question they could not answer. Ask what Infinity might produce and the only possible answer was, "Anything."
Any good, any evil; any god, any devil.
"What if the Honoured Matres are fleeing something?" Odrade asked. "Interesting possibility?"
"These speculations are useless," Bellonda muttered. "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many . . . or even an infinite number of expanding and collapsing bubbles."
"Did the Tyrant understand this any better than we do?" Tamalane asked.
Mostly p. 126 on mine. You're welcome.

Also, Hi!
Very helpful... I think that backs up the multi-galactic-during-Dune argument, but still nothing totally conclusive. Although, when Tamalane asks that question, and you consider Leto II's "multi-galactic" comment, it kind of suggests that he knew better than everyone else, and the imperium has been multi-galactic since the advent of foldspace...

And welcome, Mr. Signo!
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Post by Spicelon »

The Romans considered themselves Masters of the Universe (relative) even though they knew there were other lands out there that they hadn't actually conquered. Just because Shadam declared himself master of the universe doesn't remotely imply that he should be taken literally. Keeping things within a single galaxy seems most practical. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

Spicelon wrote:The Romans considered themselves Masters of the Universe (relative) even though they knew there were other lands out there that they hadn't actually conquered. Just because Shadam declared himself master of the universe doesn't remotely imply that he should be taken literally. Keeping things within a single galaxy seems most practical. Just my 2 cents.
Explain yourself. I get the Romans part, but how is one galaxy more practical? Remember we're talking about foldspace.
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Post by Spicelon »

Drunken Idaho wrote:
Spicelon wrote:The Romans considered themselves Masters of the Universe (relative) even though they knew there were other lands out there that they hadn't actually conquered. Just because Shadam declared himself master of the universe doesn't remotely imply that he should be taken literally. Keeping things within a single galaxy seems most practical. Just my 2 cents.
Explain yourself. I get the Romans part, but how is one galaxy more practical? Remember we're talking about foldspace.
From the standpoint of a fan/reader reading these books, I think it adds an
unneeded stumbling point to debate the nth galaxy question. A single
galaxy is plenty big to realize huge benefits to FTL travel. I write this with
complete disregard for what the text may or may not say. From a fan
perspective, there is plenty enough going on in Frank's world(s) that I don't
need to burden myself with the question of multiple inhabited galaxies.

EDIT: is it just me or is the board time screwed up again?
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Omphalos wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:To Omph - I don't know, that could get really expensive, and we really have no idea just how dangerous piloting without a Navigator is in the Duniverse. If it was anything above 20% fatality I think that would pretty much make the whole idea un-doable.
We are talking about the masters of business and transportation, in a feudal empire where the average human life means squat. The Guild is rolling in it. And I would imagine that thousands of failed efforts where they lose their ship would be worth finding one planet that could support life, based on transport charges alone that they would be able to reap, and notwithstanding development profits.
I agree totally, but still, why go the hard way? As Chig pointed out, the number of places to search is staggering, even within one galaxy. Much easier and cheaper to search via analyzing EM emissions fom distant systems. Even if you're right, and you probably are, that finding a habitable planet would more than make up for losses - it still makes more sense to me to just find systems with habitable planets from a nice safe (and cheap) telescope station.

At this point of course I'm just arguing because I love discussing the science of Science Fiction. :wink:
Because seeing a planet circling a sun in our galaxy is one thing. Seeing a planet orbiting a sun in another is another thing entirely. It would be impossible.
I know, and I actually already addressed that! To quote myself from earlier in this thread:
...Of course that (likely) wouldn’t work for finding habitable planets in other galaxies from ours, but all it would take is to foldspace a ship over to whatever galaxy you want to colonize, dump a whole bunch of low paid saps in a smallish space station with a whole bunch of telescope gear (of course this plan could use some work, I did just come up with it though...) and just foldspace back and check on them/replace them every so often. Let them find the good systems the old fashioned way.
Still cheaper and easier than sending manned missions to every system you want to investigate before even knowing which ones have livable worlds. IMO.

:D
Don't forget, AToE, that this is how they did it pre-Guild. Remember the Ampoliros? Yes, you lose ships. But the faster you accumulate habitable systems, the quicker you go into the black. IIRC that ship was a "star searcher," or some such.
I was thinking only post-guild, or at least post-foldspace. I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one, because I hold that other than the initial journeys needed to set up the "observatories" it would just be inefficient to continue jumping blindly. I agree with you that that would have been relatively cheap for the guild, and very profitable - I just think that my way is cheaper and faster and more profitable. Obviously there's nothing wrong with your exploration system, I just think mine edges it out by taking all the resources that would have been used jumping around blindly and channeling them into only systems with habitable (or at least likely habitable) worlds. Just seems to make more sense to me. I imagine ships would still be lost, just less of them.
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Post by Lisan Al-Gaib »

As I have already said before, I share the same vision of SandChigger.

I always picture the Corrino Imperium located at only our galaxy. Do you want evidences? ok:

All planets indicated in the books are revolving star of our galaxy: Canopus, Delta Pavonis, Ophiucus B,.... You can say that the core it's inside our galaxy and that all the Imperium extend through another galaxies. So if thats is true, why Ferring would say "the " galaxy? And, what would be the propose of Golden path whether the humanity is everywhere anyway?

Another point is that short time after the end of BJ the Lansdraad had only 13.000 worlds on its grip. Whether the humanity had spread through another habitable world out of Milky way time before the discovery of Foldspace (I believe that Folding space is the unique FTL travel mechanism in Duniverse), why would the number of worlds be so small?

For me, these are the most pertinent questions.

About the multi-galactic Empire that Leto II are referring of: I'm starting to believe that before he restrain the humanity he had encouraged the exploration and colonization. Why? Because doing that would traumatize the humanity even more. We have to realize that during the Corrino's Times the Imperium had been experiencing thousand of years of stagnation. So, for Leto II mark the humanity until it bones he would have to give them the feeling of lost. Lost of their freedom.

My 2 cents.
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Post by Lundse »

Got a crazy thought here - maybe the empirium is only one galaxy and either Frank made a linguistic slip or...

Leto II has taken over Junction (or more than one junction planet), possibly even some renegade houses' refuges. And these the guild put far, far away. It is not impossible that the guild, being paranoid, were afraid that Junction would be found, and therefore have a few known coordinates and planet in the galaxy next door - hence, the empire would become multi-galactic as Leto II clamped down on the guild (and everyone else).

Possible?
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:As I have already said before, I share the same vision of SandChigger.

I always picture the Corrino Imperium located at only our galaxy. Do you want evidences? ok:

All planets indicated in the books are revolving star of our galaxy: Canopus, Delta Pavonis, Ophiucus B,.... You can say that the core it's inside our galaxy and that all the Imperium extend through another galaxies. So if thats is true, why Ferring would say "the " galaxy? And, what would be the propose of Golden path whether the humanity is everywhere anyway?

Another point is that short time after the end of BJ the Lansdraad had only 13.000 worlds on its grip. Whether the humanity had spread through another habitable world out of Milky way time before the discovery of Foldspace (I believe that Folding space is the unique FTL travel mechanism in Duniverse), why would the number of worlds be so small?

For me, these are the most pertinent questions.

About the multi-galactic Empire that Leto II are referring of: I'm starting to believe that before he restrain the humanity he had encouraged the exploration and colonization. Why? Because doing that would traumatize the humanity even more. We have to realize that during the Corrino's Times the Imperium had been experiencing thousand of years of stagnation. So, for Leto II mark the humanity until it bones he would have to give them the feeling of lost. Lost of their freedom.

My 2 cents.
Whoa, whoa... Where in any of the books does it say the parts I emboldened? Appendices? Dune Encyclopedia? I really don't recall it.
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Post by SandChigger »

Drunken Idaho wrote:Whoa, whoa... Where in any of the books does it say the parts I emboldened? Appendices? Dune Encyclopedia? I really don't recall it.
Ahem. :?

All from Dune, "Terminology of the Imperium" and "Religion Appendix" (Appendix II):
ARRAKIS: the planet known as Dune; third planet of Canopus.

CALADAN: third planet of Delta Pavonis; birthworld of Paul-Muad'Dib.

GIEDI PRIME: the planet of Ophiuchi B (36), homeworld of House Harkonnen. A median-viable planet with a low active-photosynthesis range.

Historians estimate the riots took eighty million lives. That works out to about six thousand for each world then in the Landsraad League.
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Post by Lisan Al-Gaib »

Thank you very much, Chig.

Yes, these are my sources: Dune Appendix and Terminology of the Imperium.
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Post by cmsahe »

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:Thank you very much, Chig.

Yes, these are my sources: Dune Appendix and Terminology of the Imperium.
Thank you all, too, I didn't remember this either.
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Post by inhuien »

The following passage is taken from GEoD and it finds Leto in a thoughtful, contemplative mood taking to Moneo of his “Safaris” in other memory.
" I have seen peoples and planets in such numbers that they lose meaning even in imagination. Ohhh, the landscapes I have passed. The calligraphy of alien roads glimpsed from space and imprinted upon my innermost sight. The eroded sculpture of canyons and cliffs and galaxies has imprinted upon me the certain knowledge that I am a mote."
Here he talks of Galaxies again, now he could of course have been playing with Moneo or he could have been being factual and given the time frame of his Other Memory would support the argument that Shaddams Empire was also multi galactic. I think he was just having a laugh myself.
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Post by GamePlayer »

Yeah, it's an interesting quote, but I'm not sure if it really gets us anywhere. I think we've pretty much exhausted what little solid fact is written on the subject. Nonetheless, the quote is a good find and does make a case for a multi-galactic empire, given the recurring vocabulary that implies such.
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Post by SandChigger »

He mentions viewing things from space; a lot more galaxies would be visible than from on the surface of a planet. Given how he mentions feeling like "a mote" at the end, I take it more to mean that he feels humbled by the enormity of it all.

Just pointing out an alternative interpretation. ;)


(Anyone remember how Byron went off into Cloud Cuckoo Land using the "alien roads" bit? :lol: )
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Post by Freakzilla »

SandChigger wrote:(Anyone remember how Byron went off into Cloud Cuckoo Land using the "alien roads" bit? :lol: )
Yes. He tried to use this as proof of aliens in Dune, I believe.
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Post by TheDukester »

In my lurkings over at UpKevinsAss.com, I've often wondered if Byron has ever read Dune. Seriously.
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Post by Tleilax Master B »

Yes. He tried to use this as proof of aliens in Dune, I believe.

^^ Yes, jesus was that annoying. It followed along with his other strange paths of logic--like the mention of the "oracle"--which was clearly meant to be "one who is prescient" as an example of Frank alluding to Norma :roll:
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Post by Freakzilla »

TheDukester wrote:In my lurkings over at UpKevinsAss.com, I've often wondered if Byron has ever read Dune. Seriously.
Oh, I believe he has. What is hard for me to believe though is how anyone can read killer, cross-dressing, dinobots into it.
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Post by SandChigger »

Well ... he has been known to wear a manskirt himself on occasion.... ;)
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