Is Dune is a work of science fiction or a work of fantasy?


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inhuien
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Post by inhuien »

iirc they are very closely related to the Robot books being set a couple of hundred years after the Andrew story( it's been many years since reading them forgive my failing memory).
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Post by Freakzilla »

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Serkanner wrote:I found Asimov's robot series a lot better then the Foundation series actually. Should re-read them one of these days.

just finished foundation series. other than prequels. have since bought the robot books and empire trilogy but am taking a short break from asimov to read some other books on the 'to read' list.

i love how he (almost) seamlessly connects the other series to foundation and look forward to seeing similar integration in the others. is the elijah baley series pretty closely tied with (i'd presume) the robot series? i didn't buy that one but will if it's definitely a connected series.
The content of both series is entirely unrelated, one of the main characters from the Robot Series is what ties them together.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Post by A Thing of Eternity »

I thought prelude was the most well written book of the bunch.
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Post by Hunchback Jack »

I would go on to read Foundation's Edge, at least. If you like the writing style and don't mind the change in direction, then go on to read the rest.

By "the rest" I would recommend reading the later Asimov Foundation/Robot stories in publication order, not in chronological order. It doesn't *really* matter, but I think you do enjoy and understand them better that way.

For the record, that order is:

Foundation 1/2/3
Foundation's Edge
[read Caves of Steel and Naked Sun here if you haven't already]
The Robots of Dawn
Robots and Empire
Foundation and Earth
Prelude to Foundation
Forward the Foundation

Some are better than others, it's true, but all are still pretty good.

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Post by Hunchback Jack »

I don't think it matters where you read the Galactic Empire series; although part of the same universe, and fit between the Robot and Foundation novels chronologically, they don't have strong dependencies on them.

They're worth reading, by the way. But you don't need to read them before the others.

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Post by Freakzilla »

Hunchback Jack wrote:I don't think it matters where you read the Galactic Empire series; although part of the same universe, and fit between the Robot and Foundation novels chronologically, they don't have strong dependencies on them.

They're worth reading, by the way. But you don't need to read them before the others.

HBJ
I agree, the GE series can stand alone.
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Post by Freakzilla »

Baraka Bryan wrote:where do you recommend reading the galactic empire series then? before the foundation trilogy to get backdrop on the empire that's falling in the trilogy?

i've currently read
1/2/3 -->Edge -->& Earth

next will be reading the galactic empire series i think, then the prequels then all the robot novels,
Just don't read Robots and Empire until after you've read both the Robot and Foundation series...I think.

:?
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Post by Freakzilla »

I don't think the prequels will spoil anything, let me get back to you on that... or maybe some else can answer.
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Post by Hunchback Jack »

If you've already read Foundation and Earth, then I think you can read either the prequels or the robot novels next. It doesn't matter much.

If you haven't read F&E yet, then it would be slightly better to read the robot novels before reading it. Then read the prequels after reading F&E.

Edited to add: I consider Robots and Empire to be the fourth Robot novel, so you should read the first three before reading it.

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Post by Freakzilla »

Hunchback Jack wrote:Edited to add: I consider Robots and Empire to be the fourth Robot novel, so you should read the first three before reading it.

HBJ
But isn't that the tie-in book between the Robot Series and Foundation?
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Post by Hunchback Jack »

Yes. I'm just saying, though, that it won't make much sense unless you read Caves, Naked and Dawn first.

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Post by Freakzilla »

Hunchback Jack wrote:Yes. I'm just saying, though, that it won't make much sense unless you read Caves, Naked and Dawn first.

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Exactly...
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Post by cmsahe »

BTW , don't waste neither your money nor your time, the Second Foundation trilogy, authorized by the Asimov Estate after his death is bad, just more corporate fan fiction like the one written by Pinky & The Brain.
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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Post by Freakzilla »

I've heard about those Foundation books by "other authors" and have never had any desire to read them.
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Post by cmsahe »

Freakzilla wrote:I've heard about those Foundation books by "other authors" and have never had any desire to read them.
I liked the Foundation Novels so much that I wanted to like The Second Foundation Trilogy. So hard I wanted to convince myself that these books were canon Foundation stuff that I even wrote a possitive comment in Amazon, but after a while, I had to admit it to myself, these books are worse than fan fiction: Hary Seldon and Dors Venabili are immersed in virtual reality inhabiting the minds of chimpanzees, the restored minds of Voltaire and Joan D'Arc are loose in cyberspace and having a soap opera love affair, Daneel Olivaw is unrecognizable (the authors depict him weakly), now there are robots everywhere on Trantor, there is an unbelievably and poorly written plot to kill Hary Seldon by an official who wants to be First Minister too (during these events Hary Seldon becomes like Bruce Willis in "Die Hard").

There are aliens living in cyberspace who want to destroy mankind for having destroyed their worlds during the colonization of the Galaxy, but Voltaire, Joan D'Arc and Hary Seldon take care of them. There is too a Sith woman, sorry a mentat girl who hunts down other mentats but Hary's granddaughter takes care of her.

In the third book an elderly Seldon roams the Galaxy accompanied by a character who reminded me of Jar Jar Bings and like if it were a plot taken out from any KJA Star Wars novel, they find a long abandoned and forgotten star fleet, there is a rebellion of ancient robots going on (The ancients mentioned in other Asimov's stories), at one point it is insinuated that Hary Seldon is either cloned or duplicated as a robot (a misterious medical pod is involved), the Earth is just a myth everyone says it, but when they wish it they easily find it & travel to it. The rebel robots want to send Hary ahead in time (using the same experiment that allows that character in one of The Empire novels to travel to the future) but instead, the Captain of Seldon's yacth jumps to the vortex. Daneel Olivaw appears and saves the day & Dors Venabili and her robot boyfriend go honeymooning (a robot free of the 3 Laws)

My rating: 1 star, I do not recommend you to read these novels by the "Killer Bees" (Bear, Brim, Branford). I suspect that the lazy authors simply edited and changed the names of characters in unpublished books: "My SW novel will be a Foundation novel instead, I only have to change Han Solo & Leia for Hary and Dors" (Greg Bear has written SW novels too)

Instead, buy the 3 in 1 edition of The Empire Novels published by the Science Fiction Book Club. Amazon is selling hardcover reprints of two of the Empire Novels too.
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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on DUNE's Sci-fi status

Post by Sole Man »

I read the first FOUNDATION, and didn't really like it.

One of the reasons I consider DUNE to be the greatest Science Fiction novel ever written is becuase it's pure science fiction. And the Scientific parts are sooo in depth and well thought and explained, coupled with a great story that caputres the reader. and connveys not only scientifc ideas, but an analyis of the human condition, Herbert's views on religion, politics, and ecology and so many other topics, making it one of the grandest epics in all of liteature.

One thing I've been asking Freak, Chig, Omphalos and various others is:
How could Paul see the future without using magic? What I've concluded from thier answers is that, through natrual selection, he was bred to have the natural ability to "Guess" at things and be able to predict them. The Spice cuased this to bloom into a larger conusness, until he finally took the water of life and set his mind into an altered state of thinking.
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Post by Freakzilla »

I liked Greg Bear's Eon and Eternity, I'm suprised his Foundation book was so bad.
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Post by Hunchback Jack »

Re: The Second Foundation Trilogy

Yes, stay away.

They are individually okay and quite well written (i.e. they are written by authors with some skill and experience under their belts), but they take a few too many liberties with the universe, and are not consistent with each other (or with Asimov's originals). I think Brin's is the best of the three, but in general, I wouldn't bother.

Re: OSC

He wrote a Foundation short story called The Originist, which I liked a lot. You can find it in Foundation's Friends (a collection of homages to Asimov by other authors) and in Card's own Maps in a Mirror shorts collection.

Foundation's Friends is actually worth a look in any case. It's a bit variable in quality, but the contributors definitely treated Asimov's various universes with respect. Even the satirical essays are laughing with Asimov, not at him. Connie Willis's "Dilemma" is hilarious.

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Post by Sole Man »

Baraka Bryan wrote:I'd like to see Orson Scott Card take a stab at foundation. (hell he should have been approached to do Dune sequels)
Yeah! I agree, I mean, the only conceivable (and rational) reason I can think of is that he turned them down, which I don't think he would do. The only reason I can think of for that is that he didn't want to risk doing to it what KJA has already done.

plus, we both spell thier names with three letters.
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Re: re:

Post by Secher_Nbiw »

cmsahe wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I've heard about those Foundation books by "other authors" and have never had any desire to read them.
I liked the Foundation Novels so much that I wanted to like The Second Foundation Trilogy. So hard I wanted to convince myself that these books were canon Foundation stuff that I even wrote a possitive comment in Amazon, but after a while, I had to admit it to myself, these books are worse than fan fiction: Hary Seldon and Dors Venabili are immersed in virtual reality inhabiting the minds of chimpanzees, the restored minds of Voltaire and Joan D'Arc are loose in cyberspace and having a soap opera love affair, Daneel Olivaw is unrecognizable (the authors depict him weakly), now there are robots everywhere on Trantor, there is an unbelievably and poorly written plot to kill Hary Seldon by an official who wants to be First Minister too (during these events Hary Seldon becomes like Bruce Willis in "Die Hard").

There are aliens living in cyberspace who want to destroy mankind for having destroyed their worlds during the colonization of the Galaxy, but Voltaire, Joan D'Arc and Hary Seldon take care of them. There is too a Sith woman, sorry a mentat girl who hunts down other mentats but Hary's granddaughter takes care of her.

In the third book an elderly Seldon roams the Galaxy accompanied by a character who reminded me of Jar Jar Bings and like if it were a plot taken out from any KJA Star Wars novel, they find a long abandoned and forgotten star fleet, there is a rebellion of ancient robots going on (The ancients mentioned in other Asimov's stories), at one point it is insinuated that Hary Seldon is either cloned or duplicated as a robot (a misterious medical pod is involved), the Earth is just a myth everyone says it, but when they wish it they easily find it & travel to it. The rebel robots want to send Hary ahead in time (using the same experiment that allows that character in one of The Empire novels to travel to the future) but instead, the Captain of Seldon's yacth jumps to the vortex. Daneel Olivaw appears and saves the day & Dors Venabili and her robot boyfriend go honeymooning (a robot free of the 3 Laws)

My rating: 1 star, I do not recommend you to read these novels by the "Killer Bees" (Bear, Brim, Branford). I suspect that the lazy authors simply edited and changed the names of characters in unpublished books: "My SW novel will be a Foundation novel instead, I only have to change Han Solo & Leia for Hary and Dors" (Greg Bear has written SW novels too)

Instead, buy the 3 in 1 edition of The Empire Novels published by the Science Fiction Book Club. Amazon is selling hardcover reprints of two of the Empire Novels too.
Cheers for the warning! I was half tempted to read them, especially when i saw David Bring had written one, I really like Kil'n People. But I was dubious when i saw it was other writters and gone for a prequel series.
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Re: on DUNE's Sci-fi status

Post by cmsahe »

Sole Man wrote:I read the first FOUNDATION, and didn't really like it.

One thing I've been asking Freak, Chig, Omphalos and various others is:
How could Paul see the future without using magic? What I've concluded from thier answers is that, through natrual selection, he was bred to have the natural ability to "Guess" at things and be able to predict them...
Just like Golan Trevize "the man who is always right", he was bred by Daneel Olivaw in a very Bene Gesserit way.
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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Post by Ghost »

You forgot that is a motherfucking sexy womanizer!

Can even turn a planet on!
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

I'm actually about to read the Foundation Series. Right after I finish The Dosadi Experiment.

I know there is the original trilogy (Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation), but I thought all the other books were written by Asimov as well (Foundation's Edge, Foundation and Earth, etc...). My copies of the books all say Asimov!

Which books should I avoid?
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Post by Drunken Idaho »

Hmm, I'm still pretty unclear about it...
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Post by Secher_Nbiw »

Drunken Idaho wrote:Hmm, I'm still pretty unclear about it...
read these, the originals first Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation, then the others afterwards. The other trilogy have Asimov's name on it only because they are a continuation of his tale, three other authors were given permission by the Asimov estate to go ahead with the continuation.
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