Prescience

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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Apr 2008 21:13

SandChigger wrote:(I looked through it when you first posted a link to it a while back.)

Define movement, then.


A change in position relative to another object?
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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Apr 2008 21:15

Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I'm still not sure I understand what the point is.... Are you assuming that the past is also fluid in some way similar to the future? :?


Havent read 1984, have you? :wink:

Seriously, what exactly is the point again?


My point was, that I don't limit the definition to being able to only see the "future" but being able to see "Time".
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Postby SandChigger » 26 Apr 2008 21:20

Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I'm still not sure I understand what the point is.... Are you assuming that the past is also fluid in some way similar to the future? :?

Havent read 1984, have you? :wink:

Nyark nyark nyark. Oh, Winston, you're such a card. Have you met my pet rats? :twisted:

Seriously, what exactly is the point again?

Needling Freak? :D

To wit....

Freakzilla, defining movement, wrote:A change in position relative to another object?

OK...so how do you distinguish the initial position of that change from the final? ;)

(And how can you "see 'Time'" if Time does not exist?)
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Postby Freakzilla » 26 Apr 2008 21:58

SandChigger wrote:
Freakzilla, defining movement, wrote:A change in position relative to another object?

OK...so how do you distinguish the initial position of that change from the final? ;)


That's what I'm saying, time is a measurement of motion.

(And how can you "see 'Time'" if Time does not exist?)


As I just said, Time is merely a way to measure motion. If someone can se where things are going, and where they are, why not where they've been?
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Postby HoosierDaddy » 26 Apr 2008 23:55

Here is my theory of how FH saw prescience:

1. Paul was in the breeding line for the KH, but surely the general population had a little of that stuff in their genes, and the Guild had their share as well. If so, introducing the Dune Tarot would muddy all oracular visions just by sheer numbers of people attempting to predict the future.

2. Explaining prescience with Einsteinian physics is impossible, unless one postulates alternate universes. I don't know much about string theory works (11 dimensions?), and I would welcome somebody explaining prescience that way.

3. Assuming the oracle exists, the one with the strongest ability always prevails in a vision battle. The analogy to the stock market, where the businessman that best foresees the future, the one that predicts and creates market conditions to his advantage, is always invisible to his competitors, and always prevails.

4. "Paul Atrides died of prescience". Once he lost his sight, choosing to "disengage", he was destined to live in an oracular vision, trapped for the rest of his life. When Leto II was born, Paul's vision was shattered because he couldn't "see" Leto, as his ability was stronger. The "vision battle" in the desert at the end of COD was a mere formality for Leto.

5. Leto II learned from his father's mistakes/lessons, and did not rely on the oracle for all things. "Vision management" meant foreseeing and creating the future, to his "golden path", not falling into the oracular trap his father did.

6. Leto's vision of guiding humanity away from potential "arafel" was the golden path, but he took creative license in how mankind would evolve. Famine times and the scattering ensured survival, but the next phase included a new role of the BG (in the message to the future BG at Seitch Tabr), and the anticipation of potential "surprises" from the scattering. But not all surprises could be certain.

7. Leto's "4 deaths" quote from GEOD come into play in the future starting with HOD into CHD. Does a new oracle emerge, after the Siona genes makes the old oracle obsolete? What threat from the scattering could threaten "humanity" after Leto's golden path fades?

8. Leto predicts the Honored Matre ascension, but maybe not the Theliaxu super face dancer emergence (Marty and Daniel).

9. FH dies, and his son and KA starts pumping out sci-fi pulp. And Norma saves the day.

10. I'm legally drunk at this point, thankfully.

:roll:

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Postby Omphalos » 27 Apr 2008 01:51

SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I'm still not sure I understand what the point is.... Are you assuming that the past is also fluid in some way similar to the future? :?

Havent read 1984, have you? :wink:

Nyark nyark nyark. Oh, Winston, you're such a card. Have you met my pet rats? :twisted:


I'm 90% sure I shit those nasty lil' buggers out one day and put them on a boat to Japan. Kinda like Minerva coming out of Zeus' head. I Sat on the potty one day screaming "Do it to Chigger!" Got me over that irrational fear post-haste, old bean. So you're welcome. :wink:

SandChigger wrote:
Seriously, what exactly is the point again?

Needling Freak? :D

To wit....

Freakzilla, defining movement, wrote:A change in position relative to another object?

OK...so how do you distinguish the initial position of that change from the final? ;)

(And how can you "see 'Time'" if Time does not exist?)


Its all just information. Time, distance, velocity, orientation, inclination, that sort of stuff. The prescient sees visions of what will be, but they are not collecting data on things as differentiated as time and motion. They are just seeing gathering data on how particles and groups of particles move around. A prescient has the gift of seeing these things before their causes occur. Metaphors for time as a river or somesuch are merely useful describing whats going on. But if you dont like describing past and future, look at as causation and effect. Its the same thing, and it recognizes that our perceptions are rooted pretty firmly with certain assumptions, such as that time marches forward. Just....no matter how we describe this, it has to be in a way that is useful to the way we see "time," whatever the hell that is.

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Postby Omphalos » 27 Apr 2008 02:14

SandChigger wrote:Quoting from over on the "Music Tastes" thread (since Orald insists on fibril purity):

Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:
Omphalos wrote:The term "infinity" is not that limited. If you assume that units of time are divisible just the way that numbers are, then even if you have a distinct beginning and end, you have an infinite number of moments between each end of the time segment. I personally do not see why this view is not generally accepted, especially since as you play with mass and velocity, time becomes relative. IOW, fuck with one thing on one side of the equals sign in the E=MC2 equation, and everything on the other side changes to preserve the balance. So you actually could have an infinity of time in a closed universe.

I knew nothing good would come of you messin' with Aesop and them Greeks. Achilles and the turtle (or the arrow?), right? :roll:

;)

(An infinity of time in a closed universe...why am I suddenly thinking of Michael Moorcock and his Dancers at the End of Time?)

That's a valid point...but I don't think that's what Freak was getting at, was it?

[snip section quoted again below]

Well, the term "infinite" does not really mean "endless." It signifies more that anything can happen, meaning that mutually exclusive finalities could occur. So when you say "infinite," it does not logically exclude the possibility that all humans could be killed in the future, because "infinity" does not remove that as a possibility.

Um...no, "endless" is one of the meanings of infinite = "not finite" = "without end or limit".

All humans will die in the future, both individually and collectively as a species: there will come a time when there are no humans like us left. For us to (try to) remain in this form forever would mean stagnation and death. The only interesting question is whether we give rise to a successful new species.

(As long as we cling to a narrow physical definition of human, we're probably a dead end.)


Never let it be said that I am trying to shoe horn in on your area of knowledge, but isn't that definition of infinite colloquial? Were talking about causation here, so I think mine is more appropriate. Tell me if I'm wrong. I dunno for sure.

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Postby Omphalos » 27 Apr 2008 02:30

SandChigger wrote:All humans will die in the future, both individually and collectively as a species: there will come a time when there are no humans like us left.


Au contraire! Ted Williams froze his head. That mother fucker ain't goin nowhere.

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Postby SandChigger » 27 Apr 2008 05:27

Omphalos wrote:I'm 90% sure I shit those nasty lil' buggers out one day and put them on a boat to Japan. Kinda like Minerva coming out of Zeus' head. I Sat on the potty one day screaming "Do it to Chigger!" Got me over that irrational fear post-haste, old bean. So you're welcome. :wink:

:shock:

:?:

:shock:

This part of one post (especially the image of you on the toilet again, screaming that?!) has so profoundly disturbed me that I'm going to have to go lie down and won't be able to contemplate anything else you've written for now.

:shock:
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Postby Tyrant » 27 Apr 2008 12:00

Omphalos wrote:
SandChigger wrote:All humans will die in the future, both individually and collectively as a species: there will come a time when there are no humans like us left.


Au contraire! Ted Williams froze his head. That mother fucker ain't goin nowhere.


too bad for him though...they decapitated him..then froze his head and body serperate.... rumors are that the temperature in the tank that they keep his head was so inconsistant that his head cracked .... so if they ever do find a way to revive him...he'll have a splitting head ache ha ha ha...arent i the funniest motherfucker alive :roll:

anyway..this was all his sons idea...so i say we have a vote .... who is the worst son ever (besides orald)? the answer is.......John Henry (one of his daughters claudia approves it too...dumb bitch....another daughter bobbi-jo williams hates this idea saying her father wanted to be burned and his ashes spread)

edit note...to confirm alot of this info...i just looked it up just to make sure..and i was wrong...his head did not just crack ..... its cracked 10 times....his head has 10 fucking cracks in it...damn....it states they've also drilled holes in it ...wow.... hopefully my son hates me that much :roll:

source http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/ ... 3849.shtml
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Postby orald » 27 Apr 2008 18:14

Oh yes, please do include me in the list of bad sons alongside Brian Herbert. :?
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Postby Tyrant » 27 Apr 2008 21:06

orald wrote:Oh yes, please do include me in the list of bad sons alongside Brian Herbert. :?


lol..u know i love you orald (analy)
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Postby Tleszer » 27 Apr 2008 21:36

Tyrant wrote:
orald wrote:Oh yes, please do include me in the list of bad sons alongside Brian Herbert. :?


lol..u know i love you orald (analy)


And the only appropriate response I can think of seems to be Spicelon's mantra: "Poop!"
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Postby HoosierDaddy » 27 Apr 2008 23:21

wtf...

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Postby HoosierDaddy » 28 Apr 2008 00:33

Am I the only one that feels desecration here?

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Postby Phaedrus » 28 Apr 2008 03:44

I'm pretty sure there's a Frank Herbert quote somewhere that would settle this debate pretty quickly... But I'm without books, so someone else will have to find it.

Some points:

-As far as I can tell, Paul couldn't control his prescience. He didn't decide what he saw, he just saw things. (Citing: All of Dune Messiah, really. The whole speech about prescience obeying no natural law, the descriptions of his visions...I don't think he picked the path he saw, he just saw it.) Leto, it seems, had more control.

-This whole nonsense about infinity is pointless. There's no such thing as infinity, as SC has pointed out. Hell, in physics, "infinity" is used to solve equations when you really just mean, "really, really big." In math, you can't use infinity to solve an equation, you have to use limits(you can "approach infinity," but you can't get there, as there isn't anywhere to get!).

-Under the rules of physics that we know of, time IS space, and space IS time. Defining prescience as "seeing time" is pretty ridiculous in those terms, because time and space aren't actual things or even events, but once again, just concepts we use to understand things and events. "Time," when it really gets down to it, is just the rate of how fast things break down. If you're moving really, really, fast, things break down at a much slower rate. So there isn't a constant definition.

I think prescience does entail "seeing" the future as well as the past, and the present. Why not? What makes prescience work? How does it work? If we assume, at the base level, that prescience is just heavy Mentat work, using OM and calculating to make projections of the future, wouldn't it be the same to use OM and calculations to figure out the gaps in OM, to find the past? Or to work up to the point that OM stops? If it can be used to successfully predict the future through calculation, what makes the future so special?

I don't think that's entirely accurate, since those with the talent have very little ability to control their visions. Calculation would be more controlled. If we accept that it's unexplained, or even magic, what makes it discriminate between the past and the future? It could do it mystically, sure, but does that really make sense? A magic power for seeing only the future? How do we explain Leto's visions of the Butlerian Jihad, then? Unbidden OM?

(If anyone can remember a place where a prescient sees a past event happening differently, please tell me. It seems that this happens at one point, but I don't remember where. That would be conclusive evidence that a prescient can not only see what MAY happen, but what MAY HAVE happened, if things had been different.)
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Postby SandChigger » 28 Apr 2008 05:07

Are you thinking perhaps of when Leto tells Siona in the desert about the past annihilation of human kind that he prevented? (I'm assuming you mean some other incident, since the one I mean would be a case of him remembering something he both foresaw and prevented in the past.)

I've never understood why anyone thinks prescience could be simply Mentat abstraction of OM data and projection based on that and present conditions into the future. How then could a prescient see something completely novel?

Obviously the Mentat part was important in FH's conception, but why couldn't it be just connected to the ability to process and organize the data prescient presented? Especially for prescients like Paul and Leto with a "multidimensional" view of the future? That's a lot of data to juggle.

Is the past truly fluid? (And none of that 1984 "creative editing of reality" BS this time. ;) ) Are there multiple paths from multiple pasts leading to the present?

If we accept that multiple paths could lead from the present to a given future, then why not?

But just as only one path is actually taken to that future by any given perceiver/experiencer/individual, so only one path leads to the present.

Chosing prunes the unchosen paths. For the future, every possible world is, in a sense, a real world that can be made concrete or destroyed with a change of mind. But for the past, that fuzzy (quantum?) cloud of possible worlds is gone; what would remain for the prescient to sense or see?

:D

Durrrr...what a bunch of wank! Always refreshing to drop a load like that.

I notice that HowlingRavingNomad has an account here as well. Why don't you get his take on this? :lol:
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Postby loremaster » 28 Apr 2008 05:53

Wow, catch a conversation like this on Dumbnovels, if you can!

Adressing Freaks original point:

One particular comment that seemed pertinent to me was when Alia and Paul are discussing (Bamboozling?) Stilgar about prescience in DM. I dont know its relevance, but it seemed significant.

Something about being able to see mountains but "not" see behind them.
You can't see everything with prescience. It's 3d. I dont think you need to see the past in order to see the future. To be honest, i dont think phrases like "past" and "future" have much meaning in prescience.

Although, i do see a startling correlation with Quantum theory. Maybe the past is just events which have been "observed" thus far, and so collapsed into a single existence. Prescience is a method of seeing the dual states of events which haven't happened yet.

It's a way, i think of "choosing" which leg of the trousers of time you travel down. At each decision point (quantum decision point) the world could become one of two possibilities (multiverse theory etc ) and instead of just flipping a coin to see which thread you follow, you choose. Which brings me on to why your question needs modifying:

*****IMPORTANT*********

Prescients don't see the future, they create it.

And since you can't choose the past, there's no reason to suspect you need any input from it to choose your future .

And there's my answer.

Second point:

I'm not sure I agree with there being two "types" of prescience, like Freak. I mean, Navigator prescience is like toddling, compared to pauls striding. They're still the same, it's not toddling vs flying.

I think that navigators focus on seeing one path and end up just about being able to make it out (If it is potentially possible to thread a course to the next galaxy, a navigator's prescience will "lock" the universe into that path, and the ship will follow that path there).

Whereas Paul, as a more powerful prescient, sees many paths, and because he sees many potential paths (including the ones which dont work) he becomes disorientated as the paths merge, follow the same route for a bit, and when divergent paths converge etc.

Third point:

Prescience occurs without time, therefore whatever involves prescience must by inference be travelling at equal to or greater than, light speed.

Hypothetical "Prescient-ons" could do this, carrying information faster than light speed. There's some quite interesting experiments involving photons, waves, long windy tubes to delay particles by a fraction of a second. All these seem to suggest information at least can travel faster than light.
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Postby loremaster » 28 Apr 2008 05:57

Gods-damn it Chig, you stole my quantum point!

(took me an hour to compose my reply!)

Still, Dirty minds think alike, as they say.

Or something like that.

Just re-read Phaedrus' post too. I think he pretty much bangs the granny for me.
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Postby leto247 » 28 Apr 2008 07:15

I hope you don´t mind if i get into a little offtopic, but i have always had problems with the concept of how can anyone "breed" invisibility from prescience, like in the Siona genes.
I had always thought that maybe it could be done making the race so unpredictable that it is impossible to prognosticate how the probability wave will collapse.
But then Omphalos came with this:

I always thought that the muddying force of the tarot came from non-prescients will to select the version of the future that effectuates repetition. It interfered with the will of the prescient by clouding the oracular view. Seemed to me that was right because it as popularity built, the interference became greater.


Which makes me think: what if it is not about making the human unpredictable?, what if the goal was to harness the potential prescient abilities of all humanity so the interference is so great that it is impossible to predict anything.

After all, we know that prescience is not eradicated by the time of Heretics and beyond, some Bene Gesserit sisters show latent abilities that they use sometimes. And we also know that a prescient can´t see another. So if the whole humanity is prescient, even at an unconscious level, you have a humanity invisible to prescience.

What do you think?

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Postby loremaster » 28 Apr 2008 07:55

Leto247 - you are onto some good points there...

Freak has a theory (with some weight, i might add) - that the siona gene is infact latent prescience. Infact thinking about it Freak, the comment about the "multitude" of other memories not being able to "See" siona, she walks silently among them (Leto/Moneo, GEoD) reinforces your argument about "can we see the past" with prescience. Since the distinguishing feature is that she's immune to prescience, and she's also immune to OM attacks.

( OOOH, good plotline there...... is someone descended from siona, and therefore immune to OM attacks, also now immune to posession? Do they become immune to being preborn?).

Anyway, back on track. It's possible Siona's latent prescience (especially when distributed widely enough) interfere's with a prescients overall prescience (try typing that three times quickly!). BUT i dont think so:

Prescience does appear to be targettable to some degree (maybe im contradicting myself here) . Or the guild seem to think so, when they bring in one of the "Edrics" to find Duncan (HoD).

So no, the Siona gene wasn't about rendering prescience as a whole, useless. That would be counterproductive, since the guild would no longer be able to navigate. But it does shield individuals, people nearby, and their actions. (and, if enough people do it, entire planets).

The Tarot, i think, stirred up the waters because it allowed small amounts of prescience (which were common in the fremen) to muddy local time, making it hard for a prescient of insufficient power to see through. (and conversely, enough people to muddy it even for a big prescient).

However, i think Omph. is wrong in saying that it is people's collective desire to choose the future, or repeat the past is what gave the tarot its effects on Paul's visions. I dont think wants, conscious or not, have anything to do with it. You cant make a non-prescient prescient even to the slightest degree by teaching him to hone a talent he doesnt have.

What probably happened is that as it's popularity grew, more teeny-bit-prescients had a go, and added a bit more to the fuzziness. (remember, prescience is a quantitative grading, not a qualitative on-off ability).

But no, i think it's nothing to do with unpredictability. I think someone said it well earlier (prob. Omph.) when he said prescience is not simply an extrapolation of Other Memory using mentat abilities. If humans were to suddenly spout wings, shoot lasers from their eyes and breed by Binary Fission, a prescient would still be able to see it in his visions (but, unless Pinky and the Brian get REALLY out of control that has never happened in the duniverse and can't be in OM).
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Postby leto247 » 28 Apr 2008 10:45

Yeah, forget about unpredictability. Now I prefer the latent prescient theory :) .

That would be counterproductive, since the guild would no longer be able to navigate.


Remember that after the death of Leto II, humanity isn´t under the monopoly of the Guild anymore. They fold space by technology.

But it does shield individuals, people nearby, and their actions. (and, if enough people do it, entire planets).


Yes, individuals, people nearby, entire planets, and what if ALL humans in the Universe have prescience?... :P

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Postby HoosierDaddy » 28 Apr 2008 15:22

Phaedrus wrote:I'm pretty sure there's a Frank Herbert quote somewhere that would settle this debate pretty quickly... But I'm without books, so someone else will have to find it.

Some points:

-As far as I can tell, Paul couldn't control his prescience. He didn't decide what he saw, he just saw things. (Citing: All of Dune Messiah, really. The whole speech about prescience obeying no natural law, the descriptions of his visions...I don't think he picked the path he saw, he just saw it.) Leto, it seems, had more control.

-This whole nonsense about infinity is pointless. There's no such thing as infinity, as SC has pointed out. Hell, in physics, "infinity" is used to solve equations when you really just mean, "really, really big." In math, you can't use infinity to solve an equation, you have to use limits(you can "approach infinity," but you can't get there, as there isn't anywhere to get!).

-Under the rules of physics that we know of, time IS space, and space IS time. Defining prescience as "seeing time" is pretty ridiculous in those terms, because time and space aren't actual things or even events, but once again, just concepts we use to understand things and events. "Time," when it really gets down to it, is just the rate of how fast things break down. If you're moving really, really, fast, things break down at a much slower rate. So there isn't a constant definition.

I think prescience does entail "seeing" the future as well as the past, and the present. Why not? What makes prescience work? How does it work? If we assume, at the base level, that prescience is just heavy Mentat work, using OM and calculating to make projections of the future, wouldn't it be the same to use OM and calculations to figure out the gaps in OM, to find the past? Or to work up to the point that OM stops? If it can be used to successfully predict the future through calculation, what makes the future so special?

I don't think that's entirely accurate, since those with the talent have very little ability to control their visions. Calculation would be more controlled. If we accept that it's unexplained, or even magic, what makes it discriminate between the past and the future? It could do it mystically, sure, but does that really make sense? A magic power for seeing only the future? How do we explain Leto's visions of the Butlerian Jihad, then? Unbidden OM?

(If anyone can remember a place where a prescient sees a past event happening differently, please tell me. It seems that this happens at one point, but I don't remember where. That would be conclusive evidence that a prescient can not only see what MAY happen, but what MAY HAVE happened, if things had been different.)


1. Paul chose the "disengage" path (amongst others he saw) in DM. That is prescient control IMO.

2. Extrapolating to infinity was the basis for Einstein's E=MC2. Fourier infinite series IIRC.

I think the subject of past/present/future is important when discussing FH's prescience, because how would the oracle know when the vision is, what was the "true" past, and when is the present?

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Postby HoosierDaddy » 28 Apr 2008 15:50

loremaster wrote:Leto247 - you are onto some good points there...

Freak has a theory (with some weight, i might add) - that the siona gene is infact latent prescience. Infact thinking about it Freak, the comment about the "multitude" of other memories not being able to "See" siona, she walks silently among them (Leto/Moneo, GEoD) reinforces your argument about "can we see the past" with prescience. Since the distinguishing feature is that she's immune to prescience, and she's also immune to OM attacks.

( OOOH, good plotline there...... is someone descended from siona, and therefore immune to OM attacks, also now immune to posession? Do they become immune to being preborn?).

Anyway, back on track. It's possible Siona's latent prescience (especially when distributed widely enough) interfere's with a prescients overall prescience (try typing that three times quickly!). BUT i dont think so:

Prescience does appear to be targettable to some degree (maybe im contradicting myself here) . Or the guild seem to think so, when they bring in one of the "Edrics" to find Duncan (HoD).

So no, the Siona gene wasn't about rendering prescience as a whole, useless. That would be counterproductive, since the guild would no longer be able to navigate. But it does shield individuals, people nearby, and their actions. (and, if enough people do it, entire planets).

The Tarot, i think, stirred up the waters because it allowed small amounts of prescience (which were common in the fremen) to muddy local time, making it hard for a prescient of insufficient power to see through. (and conversely, enough people to muddy it even for a big prescient).

However, i think Omph. is wrong in saying that it is people's collective desire to choose the future, or repeat the past is what gave the tarot its effects on Paul's visions. I dont think wants, conscious or not, have anything to do with it. You cant make a non-prescient prescient even to the slightest degree by teaching him to hone a talent he doesnt have.

What probably happened is that as it's popularity grew, more teeny-bit-prescients had a go, and added a bit more to the fuzziness. (remember, prescience is a quantitative grading, not a qualitative on-off ability).

But no, i think it's nothing to do with unpredictability. I think someone said it well earlier (prob. Omph.) when he said prescience is not simply an extrapolation of Other Memory using mentat abilities. If humans were to suddenly spout wings, shoot lasers from their eyes and breed by Binary Fission, a prescient would still be able to see it in his visions (but, unless Pinky and the Brian get REALLY out of control that has never happened in the duniverse and can't be in OM).


The Siona gene (at the end of GEOD) is the factor that the oracle can't see/find the individual.

"My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle
cannot see her."
"What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.
"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always
diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden
Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that
once you had."


This may imply that the oracle is composed of 2 talents: The ability to "see" the future in physical sense (i.e. the Guild), and the ability to see/find/predict humanity and their actions.

I'll throw out a theory that the oracle maybe needed three sharpened abilities:

1. The Guild prescience of the physical universe, magnified.

2. The Guild's ability to "see" humanity, magnified

3. The trained mind to make sense of it all, such as mentat abilities, Zensunni training, etc.

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SandChigger
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Postby SandChigger » 28 Apr 2008 18:53

loremaster wrote:Wow, catch a conversation like this on Dumbnovels, if you can!

Good luck at that. :roll:

"Ooh, how excited is everyone that they're about to squirt out yet another book?!"

Sorry about the quantum bit. ;)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"