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Jaster Mereel
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Postby Jaster Mereel » 09 Apr 2008 00:36

I'm not trying to take away from the genetic discussion because I got nothing to add in that area.

I'm a bit rusty but the way I have viewed the structure of the Guild is basically this..
1- Grunts - who carry the luggage/cargo and maitenence work on the ship. Somebody's got to do it.

2 - Bureaucrats of some sort - finance, travel planning ..whatever. Basically the same corporate douchebags that work it nowadays. Which is where HoD & ChoD may be headed. Anyway...

3 - Navigators. I think The navigatos had different classification system. Kinda like like the modern day Navy. I am not familiar with the ranks but I always thought of a "steersman" as a second or third class navigator. He's got some skills but he has still a lot to learn in the navigating field. A full navigator is the best of the best. If I were an Atreides, would I trust my whole fleet to a "steersman?" No, I want a naviagator.

Just The way I have thought of it.

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orald
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Postby orald » 09 Apr 2008 06:19

Crysknife wrote:Why am I having visions of dark motel rooms and inspectors waving black lights slowly over the beds? :?

Why am I having visions of Crysknife in dark motel rooms, spoiling the sheets? :wink:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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SandChigger
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Postby SandChigger » 09 Apr 2008 19:28

We need a spice thread, evidently.

I'm still bothered by the "spice as sperm" idea, at least as spermatic material produced by the worms. I still haven't seen a single quote where Frank Herbert says or writes that the worms deposit the spice anywhere. (That they internally produce chemically similar substances—their breath reeks of it—is beyond question, of course.)

That it acts as a catalyst in the development of sandtrout survivors of a spice blow into the pupal (not pupil!) cysts from which worms later emerge makes perfect sense to me.

But consider this: if spice produced as "sperm" by adult worms were necessary for the development of worms from sandtrout, the cycle would never get off the ground the first time on a new planet without the intervention/assistance of a third party (to spread the sperm spice on the blow-shocked sandtrout).

If instead we assume that the catalyst "spermatic" spice is produced in the same blow that shell-shocks the sandtrout in the first place, the spice cycle can be established on any water-rich planet, without the presence of adult worms or the assistance of other agents.

Because spice is sun/air-dried pre-spice mass (+ bits of dead sandtrout?)—itself the fremented metabolic wastes of sandtrout, of course it's organic and can be reproduced in the BT tanks.


(I'd really like to hear the original of that interview. I still wonder if FH wasn't just agreeing with McNelly, his friend, on a minor point, to keep the flow going.)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Crysknife
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Postby Crysknife » 09 Apr 2008 20:28

orald wrote:
Crysknife wrote:Why am I having visions of dark motel rooms and inspectors waving black lights slowly over the beds? :?

Why am I having visions of Crysknife in dark motel rooms, spoiling the sheets? :wink:


You're not allowed.....only people that reply to PMs get to have those visions. :wink:

On second thought, you're not allowed under any circumstances. :?
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orald
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Postby orald » 09 Apr 2008 20:37

Hmm, I got no PMs ATM... :?
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I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Crysknife
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Postby Crysknife » 09 Apr 2008 20:59

Well, it was at worms....a while back. You were still mad I'll wager.
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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 09 Apr 2008 21:06

SandChigger wrote:I still haven't seen a single quote where Frank Herbert says or writes that the worms deposit the spice anywhere.


Now they had the circular relationship: little maker to pre-spice mass;
little maker to shai-hulud; shai-hulud to scatter the spice upon which fed
microscopic creatures called sand plankton; the sand plankton, food for shaihulud,
growing, burrowing, becoming little makers.


Close...
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orald
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Postby orald » 09 Apr 2008 21:20

Crysknife wrote:Well, it was at worms....a while back. You were still mad I'll wager.

Hmm, didn't we talk about this? Well, I haven't been back there since, so I can't check my messages now, can I?
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Crysknife
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Postby Crysknife » 09 Apr 2008 22:57

I can't remember if we did. I only recall trying to contact you after you were demoted at Arrakeen and never heard back from you. Oh well, not a big deal, I was just ribbin' you a bit.
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SandChigger
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Postby SandChigger » 09 Apr 2008 23:32

Freakzilla wrote:
SandChigger wrote:I still haven't seen a single quote where Frank Herbert says or writes that the worms deposit the spice anywhere.


Now they had the circular relationship: little maker to pre-spice mass;
little maker to shai-hulud; shai-hulud to scatter the spice upon which fed
microscopic creatures called sand plankton; the sand plankton, food for shaihulud,
growing, burrowing, becoming little makers.


Close...

But no spice cigar! :D

Have you ever taken that to mean that the worms are producing the spice they "scatter", or simply scattering the spice produced in the blows?
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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orald
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Postby orald » 10 Apr 2008 06:21

I always understood it that they're scattering the spice that's naturally formed in pre-spice masses by the little makers themselves.
There's all this talk of spice being made in pre-spice mass, no?
That's why you only see spice in spice blows and not in big trails wherever a worm passed by(and don't tell me they stop to take a big spice-dump).

Crys, if you're refering to the period after 'keen, then I'm pretty sure we talked since. You know Edric set the example Hyp followed...pity no one saw the writing on the wall or cared too much for me to do anything.
Seeing all the fuss with what Hyp did kinda looks wierd considering how smooth and quiet my elimination went.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 10 Apr 2008 07:09

Freakzilla wrote:shai-hulud to scatter the spice


How is the spice scattered?

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Postby Serkanner » 10 Apr 2008 10:12

fantomas wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:shai-hulud to scatter the spice


How is the spice scattered?


After the pre-spice has been blown to the surface ( blown out like an eruption as decribed in the scene where Kynes dies ) it is "changed" to melange by being exposed to sun an air.

A spice blow is sure to attract a worm:

A worm, Kynes thought with a surge of hope. A maker's is sure to come when this bubble bursts.

Dune, first edition 1965, page 219


and will scatter the pre-spice over a larger area:

"It was lines of movement that gave us the first clue of the relationship between worms and spice," his father said.

Dune, first edition 1965, page 219

Fantômas

Postby Fantômas » 10 Apr 2008 11:19

Serkanner wrote:
fantomas wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:shai-hulud to scatter the spice


How is the spice scattered?


After the pre-spice has been blown to the surface ( blown out like an eruption as decribed in the scene where Kynes dies ) it is "changed" to melange by being exposed to sun an air.

A spice blow is sure to attract a worm:

A worm, Kynes thought with a surge of hope. A maker's is sure to come when this bubble bursts.

Dune, first edition 1965, page 219


and will scatter the pre-spice over a larger area:

"It was lines of movement that gave us the first clue of the relationship between worms and spice," his father said.

Dune, first edition 1965, page 219


Wow! 8)

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Crysknife
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Postby Crysknife » 10 Apr 2008 11:24

Crys, if you're refering to the period after 'keen, then I'm pretty sure we talked since. You know Edric set the example Hyp followed...pity no one saw the writing on the wall or cared too much for me to do anything.
Seeing all the fuss with what Hyp did kinda looks wierd considering how smooth and quiet my elimination went.


Well, we're all a little smarter now. At least we have this forum to start fresh.
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SandChigger
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Postby SandChigger » 10 Apr 2008 12:25

As I've told Orald in PMs, I never had that negative an impression of Edric; but then, I guess I wasn't there to see him in action?


The vibration of the spice blow is no doubt what attracts the worm to it. There's a bit of a working-at-crosspurposes in the scattering of the spice, when you think about it: a spice field is also in one sense a worm nursery, where any blow-shocked sandtrout that surived could be entering the cyst stage to begin the process of becoming worms. It doesn't seem like a worm barging through the area would be the most beneficial thing for that, eh?

There's also the issue of the worm now being able to pass freely through a part of its territory formerly blocked by a mass of sandtrout-encapsulated water (well, goo). :wink:
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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orald
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Postby orald » 10 Apr 2008 14:51

SandChigger wrote:, when you think about it: a spice field is also in one sense a worm nursery, where any blow-shocked sandtrout that surived could be entering the cyst stage to begin the process of becoming worms. It doesn't seem like a worm barging through the area would be the most beneficial thing for that, eh?

Sure it's beneficial, it's the killing of the weaklings.

Just like in the ConSentiency univere(this part being only described in Dosadi) the male Gowachin goes through the pool his tadpols are in and eats all he can catch, ensuring only the fittest survive.
This was a big deal of the Gowachin psych in that book.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Tleilax Master B
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Postby Tleilax Master B » 10 Apr 2008 17:09

Great discussion. And I think I agree for the most part with what chigger is saying, my only concern really is that the spice HAS to be organic IMHO to be produced in tanks, otherwise it doesn't make a damn bit of sense to use a female womb to do it...


Hey Freak, let's start a spice topic and move this stuff over to that, whaddaya think?
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Apr 2008 17:20

I'm pretty sure if it was "organic" it would be vastly different from what we call organic. I'm not sure when FH says it, but at some point in the series he states that the worms are silicon based, and as such ould be very different from anything that we know of.
As far as making sense to use a female womb, the Tleilaxu would have had a tough time pulling it off, but it did take thousands of years and they were absolute masters at genetics.
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Postby Freakzilla » 10 Apr 2008 18:31

Tleilax Master B wrote:Hey Freak, let's start a spice topic and move this stuff over to that, whaddaya think?


Done
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Postby orald » 10 Apr 2008 18:58

TMB, maybe you should rephrase that "organic" notion and call it "cellular" or "living cell". A molecule of fat is organic, but it's not what you mean, right? What you mean is a spore or cell of some kind.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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SandChigger
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Postby SandChigger » 11 Apr 2008 03:58

Tleilax Master B wrote:my only concern really is that the spice HAS to be organic IMHO to be produced in tanks

orald wrote:maybe you should rephrase that "organic" notion and call it "cellular" or "living cell"

Not really necessary, since one of the definitions of organic is "of, relating to, or derived from living matter"; we just need to make clear that everybody knows that we're not exclusively using it to mean "of, relating to, or denoting compounds containing carbon".

The pre-spice mass is composed of sandtrout metabolic wastes in a water solution, fermented. It isn't itself a living organism, but derives from them. So I consider it an organic substance.

(I got Animal Planet on at the moment and they're talking about bees in the Amazon. Perfect example: honey—or partially digested bee regurgitate as I like to think of it ;) —is an organic compound, right?)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Postby SandChigger » 11 Apr 2008 04:10

Sorry, double posting. (DON'T BAN ME LIKE ORALD!!!)

orald wrote:What you mean is a spore or cell of some kind.

I can see it containing cellular matter injected along with the metabolic wastes, but I don't see how it can be spores or gametes, based on what we're told about how spice is formed.


There is, however, the stuff in Children about the sandtrout being haploid. Presumably the other set of chromosomes would have to come from somewhere, right? Any ideas? (Speculation: two or more haploid sandtrout spice-blow survivors join in those worm-forming cysts/pupae? If they are something like communal organisms their dissolution into sandtrout at death kinda makes more sense. I don't know....)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"

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Postby Serkanner » 11 Apr 2008 05:44

SandChigger wrote:There is, however, the stuff in Children about the sandtrout being haploid. Presumably the other set of chromosomes would have to come from somewhere, right? Any ideas? (Speculation: two or more haploid sandtrout spice-blow survivors join in those worm-forming cysts/pupae? If they are something like communal organisms their dissolution into sandtrout at death kinda makes more sense. I don't know....)


The "simplest" answer would be that there are two different "kinds" of sandtrout. One kind containing the XX chromosomes and the other the YY. Mixing them would create a worm?

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orald
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Postby orald » 11 Apr 2008 07:37

Yes, sandtrout mingling and fusing together seems reasonable.

Chig, my point was(agreeing with TMB's) that if it's "spermatic" in nature, then it means it's like sperm. Sperm is cells. Unless you're saying it's got some DNA type thingy lying around exposed without a spore's or cell's shell to protect it.
Of course, it could still mean "spermatic" was a mere analogy to it "fertilizing" them and making them grow to sandworms(like honey given to bee larvae makes them grow into queens, no?).
But it'd still be too exposed without some protection...unless it's just too alien for us to comprehand.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.