any idea when in earths history dune falls?
Posted: 31 Dec 2017 19:23
mention of the bene gesserit breeding program going on for thousands of generations hardly puts a minimum on it...
DUNE DISCUSSION FORUM FOR ORTHODOX HERBERTARIANS
http://www.jacurutu.com/
The Space Age is generally considered to have begun with Sputnik (1957).Freakzilla wrote:
So, 11,000 years after that is the Butlerian Jihad (201 BG - 108 BG) and The events of Dune begin in 10,191 AG. So that's what... 21,392 years from whenever we begin deep space travel.
ᴶᵛᵀᴬ wrote:The Space Age is generally considered to have begun with Sputnik (1957).Freakzilla wrote:
So, 11,000 years after that is the Butlerian Jihad (201 BG - 108 BG) and The events of Dune begin in 10,191 AG. So that's what... 21,392 years from whenever we begin deep space travel.
1957 + 21,392 =
1957 + 11,000 + 201 + 10,191 = 23,349
Omphalos wrote:Deep space just means outer space, which is defined typically as outside of Earth's atmosphere, or outside of the inner planet's orbit (past Mars)
Since the moon landing didn't radically affect human culture I'd say he meant something else. We could suppose a Mars/moon colony might be the start, but even then it doesn't feel right to me. The idea behind a shifting view of man in the universe, to me, would stem from the dissolution of the idea that humanity is massively nested all in one cradle. Even if a scant few humans colonize Mars that wouldn't affect the vast majority of humanity still living on Earth and seeing Earth as the home of the species. The 'Marsies' would initially be seen as a fringe group rather than the future of the species. Read the appendix entry again regarding what "deep space" means:Freakzilla wrote:Moon landing then?
We're not even close to having a hodgepodge of methods (we have only one, rockets) and what we can currently do would never induce 'mystical speculation'. The only item here that may soon fit is the notion that space travel is largely unregulated (Space X) but it's not yet at the point where that means very much. To me the 'mystical speculation' bit is the most important because this is a chapter on religion. In order for people to make such speculations in regards space travel I believe the nature of the travel itself would have to employ techniques that challenge a colloquial understanding of the universe. For instance, a jump drive would challenge a colloquial notion of what "space" or "distance" mean; folding space would challenge the notion of who should be messing with creation; a warp drive would challenge the notion of the laws of physics. All of these, or other techniques, would seem like magic to many people and would create a stir in the general worldview of reality (much like relativity did). I think that for this section to make sense it should be understood to imply that this phase will begin when we've made the next major leap ahead in engineering/physics. It would probably have to be as significant as the atomic age was in terms of it altering the general sense of reality.Mankind's movement through deep space placed a unique stamp on religion during the one hundred and ten centuries that preceded the Butlerian Jihad. To begin with, early space travel, although widespread, was largely unregulated, slow, and uncertain, and, before the Guild monopoly, was accomplished by a hodgepodge of methods. The first space experiences, poorly communicated and subject to extreme distortion, were a wild inducement to mystical speculation.
You're kidding, right?georgiedenbro wrote:
Since the moon landing didn't radically affect human culture I'd say he meant something else.
I think it was a major event within culture, i.e. as a social phenomenon, maybe in the same category as the cuban missile crisis, JFK assassination, Vietnam war, Watergate, and so forth. But did it significantly change how people lived and saw themselves within the universe? Did it create new religions or instigate re-evaluation of the current ones? Did it change the identity of humanity or make us rethink our values? I would say no to all of those. It was an important milestone, got some people to realize how small we all are, but I don't look at pre-1969 humanity and post-1969 and note some major difference. Sadly my general report would be that little has changed despite all the events that we might think ought to have changed us. If anything I'd say the Vietnam war had a massively greater impact on the American psyche than the moon landing did. I think that war really did change the character of American mentality, although not so for the human race as a whole, and in any case not in terms of a new spiritualism.Omphalos wrote:You're kidding, right?georgiedenbro wrote:
Since the moon landing didn't radically affect human culture I'd say he meant something else.
georgiedenbro wrote:I think it was a major event within culture, i.e. as a social phenomenon, maybe in the same category as the cuban missile crisis, JFK assassination, Vietnam war, Watergate, and so forth. But did it significantly change how people lived and saw themselves within the universe? Did it create new religions or instigate re-evaluation of the current ones? Did it change the identity of humanity or make us rethink our values? I would say no to all of those. It was an important milestone, got some people to realize how small we all are, but I don't look at pre-1969 humanity and post-1969 and note some major difference. Sadly my general report would be that little has changed despite all the events that we might think ought to have changed us. If anything I'd say the Vietnam war had a massively greater impact on the American psyche than the moon landing did. I think that war really did change the character of American mentality, although not so for the human race as a whole, and in any case not in terms of a new spiritualism.Omphalos wrote:You're kidding, right?georgiedenbro wrote:
Since the moon landing didn't radically affect human culture I'd say he meant something else.
If you disagree with my assessment that's fine. But we're also talking about what Frank's assessment was, right? So it's one thing to say you think those events affected humanity more than I think they did, but the real objective is to determine whether Frank thought so (whether or not he was objectively right). Since the text doesn't specify, that unfortunately means having to use my own reasoning to try to see things as he might have, but obviously that's not a direct line to the answer.Omphalos wrote: To say that the Moon shot and the Vietnam war did not radically affect human culture is the absolute silliest thing that I have heard from you
why are you so limiting? Both of these led to enormous changes in the way that Americans see their place in the world, and the way that others see our roles. That alone is a huge cultural change. How can it not be? Not to ignore the changes in technology, democracy, free-market, etc that followed. these things changed the way that we live our lives. Huge cultural change, dude. Period. and I could care less if that change is less than people must have felt while Leto held them down, or during the scattering.georgiedenbro wrote:If you disagree with my assessment that's fine. But we're also talking about what Frank's assessment was, right? So it's one thing to say you think those events affected humanity more than I think they did, but the real objective is to determine whether Frank thought so (whether or not he was objectively right). Since the text doesn't specify, that unfortunately means having to use my own reasoning to try to see things as he might have, but obviously that's not a direct line to the answer.Omphalos wrote: To say that the Moon shot and the Vietnam war did not radically affect human culture is the absolute silliest thing that I have heard from you
But maybe you can explain why you think humanity was significantly changed after the moon landing. What - and I specifically mean in the sphere of religion or spiritualism - do you think the major changes were? What do people believe now that they didn't believe then as a result of space travel? I think the moon landing is an easier topic because we can probably say with confidence that although the U.S. made the landing it resonated with the whole planet, whereas I'm unconvinced that life in Western Europe, or South America, or Africa for instance, felt the impact of the Vietnam War like the U.S. did.
I agree that Vietnam changed America's psyche considerably, but disagree that this significantly altered the mentality in other countries. It was more like PTSD and disillusionment then an opening up of new possibilities in terms of man's place in the universe. To oversimplify, I see it as a step backward, not forward. As for the moon landing, no question it was a worldwide event, more so than Vietnam. But my question is, on the ground, in living daily lives, how did this materially change anything? Did people change religions? Customs? Values? Treat each other differently?Omphalos wrote: Both of these led to enormous changes in the way that Americans see their place in the world, and the way that others see our roles.
That's really my question, what was this big change you allude to? I don't really see it. Not that there was no change, but we're talking about a passage in a book referring to a new age of mystical speculation, directly tied into the new hodgepodge of methods of space travel. Do you really think the nature of Democracy changed after 1969? If so, how? Not that I'm shutting down the possibility that you have a good point to make, but I don't think there's any reason to find such a conclusion obvious. I'd argue the assassination of JFK affected democracy more than the moon landing did, in terms of the character of the Presidents that followed. What about the free market? What changed after 1969? I'm not being sarcastic, btw, if you really think they changed significantly I wouldn't mind hearing why you think so. As for the changes in technology, I think they were coming with or without the moon landing. Many people argue that NASA space efforts were a boondoggle, technically speaking, and that it was more about beating the Soviets than doing anything scientific.That alone is a huge cultural change. How can it not be? Not to ignore the changes in technology, democracy, free-market, etc that followed. these things changed the way that we live our lives. Huge cultural change, dude.
My first, last, and best impulse as a litigator, is to never argue the obvious. Whoever is judging the controversy will get it. And its just boring. I have also noticed that the clueless will in short order come to understand the truth of things by virtue of the fact of the controversy. So I wont lose hope for you. I'll just point out that some things speak for themselves. Good luck.georgiedenbro wrote: But I'd be happy to hear if your experience was different. As as sci-fi fan I'd love to be able to believe that people have been changing as a result of thoughts about space travel.
Yeah, that's the thing, and it goes back to your question about what "the beginning" of 110 centuries is. I think we could certainly find ourselves, in 500 years, deciding that the moon landing was 'the start of it all' even though in the short term we (or I) can't see any significant changes yet. It was certainly a milestone, and one that will never be forgotten, and is as good as any single event to mark as the start of our journey through space. So I think that I definitely agree with Omph that maybe at some point in the future the 'beginning' of the 110 centuries might well be seen as starting at 1969, even though right now I don't discern much impact from it. Even if it takes us another 1,000 years before we have viable interstellar travel, we may still see fit at that time (or 10,000 later) to broadly categorize the 'space age' (as it used to be called) as starting with moon runs.Freakzilla wrote:So what would cause this great change, cultural or otherwise? Moon base? Mars Colony? Asteroid Colony? Generation ship to another star? I only mentioned the moon landing as the beginning of mankind's movement though deep space for a point of reference. It doesn't in itself have to be a earthshaking cultural revolution.
Are you fucking kidding me too? BTW, the cultural influence exists now. I do not have to be a time traveler to get it.Freakzilla wrote:So what would cause this great change, cultural or otherwise? Moon base? Mars Colony? Asteroid Colony? Generation ship to another star? I only mentioned the moon landing as the beginning of mankind's movement though deep space for a point of reference. It doesn't in itself have to be a earthshaking cultural revolution.