Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

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Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Spicelon » 24 Apr 2016 08:57

My sister is re-reading Dune for the first time in...decades. She raised a few questions I found interesting regarding the Fremen.

I believe it's widely accepted that Paul's jihad was unavoidable. As quoted here and other places, Paul had two choices when on the run from the Harkonen's - submit to the Baron or take the throne, and the godhead that came with it. As a grieving 15 year old intent on revenge [albeit a very smart and prescient 15 year old], turning himself in to the Baron was not an option.

My view is that after Paul's victory over Shaddam, there was still considerable opposition to his rule in the Landsraad. This meant that in order to secure his power-base, he had to go off planet. To stamp out the opposition, he need the Fremen. So...

Why were the Fremen so eager to do his dirty work? From where came their zealotry? I understand that Paul was central to one of their prophecies, he was their Mahdi, etc., but did that call for the eradication of 40 religions and 61 billion people? Or was it just a matter of a LOT of pent up anger after so many millennia of persecution? I'm not saying that Paul didn't love the Fremen, or identify with them, but there's no doubt he used them.

Anyway, in a really small nutshell...why were the Fremen so willing to play their part in what eventually happened?
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby SandRider » 24 Apr 2016 20:03

If you have a facebook account
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Spicelon » 24 Apr 2016 20:43

You in the right thread, SandRider? lol
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby SandRider » 24 Apr 2016 22:06

SandRider wrote:I am the WaterMaster of this Tribe.

I come claiming water-rings.

................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Robspierre » 24 Apr 2016 22:14

I have a really good 100% Rye Whiskey on hand...Lets drink it up and figure out how to cut this bitches balls off and present them to the "Merican Idol androids as the second coming of Christ's flesh into bread.

Rob

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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby lotek » 25 Apr 2016 05:20

Hadn't been offroad for a while.

SandRider wrote:If you have a facebook account
you're probably on Correct The Record™'s #EnemiesList
already

remember, Facebook Admins will automatically post-block
any account, regardless of reported content, after 275 reports
(specific posts, offensive language, fake profile, like-farm,
butthurt reports)


http://postcron.com/en/blog/how-to-avoi ... book-jail/

1. Let some time pass between posts
So, just like farts then
2. Create original content
Yeah, cause we all know how original fb posters are
3. Make it personal (and be careful with tagging)
It's always personal
4. Understand how Facebook works
Because no one else does.
5. Don’t act like a spammer
Just post before/after pics of your last meal
6. Beware of saboteurs
Unless they're tactful
7. Don’t let Facebook confuse you with a SPAM-bot
Can I go crazy posting?
8. Don’t go crazy posting
How about crazy drunk posting?
9. Provide accessible and permanent information about who you are
I am your overlord, and I'm permanently in your feed
10. Use “shortened links” on your page biography when linking to your site
Yeah cause those are not suspicious at all.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby lotek » 25 Apr 2016 05:27

Spicelon wrote:
Anyway, in a really small nutshell...why were the Fremen so willing to play their part in what eventually happened?


They were still high from the spice orgy?
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby xcalibur » 25 Apr 2016 05:48

Spicelon wrote:Or was it just a matter of a LOT of pent up anger after so many millennia of persecution?


yes, I think it's catharsis, multiplied by the psychological energies of fundamentalist belief in a messianic hero.

the single most important idea of Dune is that hero-worship is dangerous. much of the story is a criticism of and warning against the deified man.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2016 06:26

It wasn't just the pent up aggression of the Fremen but of the human race. RM Mohaim speaks early on in Dune of the race's desire to mingle genes caused by centuries of stagnation and even predicts the Jihad.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Spicelon » 25 Apr 2016 09:50

Thanks xcaliber and Freak. I'm pretty far removed the books as well and just wanted to make sure there wasn't some prophecy detail or more explicit explanation given in the text.

So does everybody else think I'm a spammer? SandRider really confuses me, but then again, I seem to remember that often being the case. ;)
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2016 10:07

Spicelon wrote:So does everybody else think I'm a spammer? SandRider really confuses me, but then again, I seem to remember that often being the case. ;)


No. Just try not to make eye contact or make any sudden movements. :P
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Omphalos » 25 Apr 2016 11:50

SandRider wrote:If you have a facebook account
you're probably on Correct The Record™'s #EnemiesList
already

remember, Facebook Admins will automatically post-block
any account, regardless of reported content, after 275 reports
(specific posts, offensive language, fake profile, like-farm,
butthurt reports)

It only takes 250 Paid CTR Trolls to lock you out of your facebook
if you run a business or small non profit, you are fucked
this is what's going on on this fine sunday, kids

a multimillion dollar corporate superPAC just put thousands of Bernie Kids™
in Facebook Jail


Maybe they'll finally fucking kill Facebook; do us all a goddam favor.

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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Apr 2016 12:47

Freakzilla wrote:It wasn't just the pent up aggression of the Fremen but of the human race. RM Mohaim speaks early on in Dune of the race's desire to mingle genes caused by centuries of stagnation and even predicts the Jihad.


I was about to write something like this. It wasn't just the Fremen but the planet-bound humans on planets everywhere that needed to stir the genetic pot. DM doesn't spend much time on this, but there are hints that although the jihad was spearheaded by the Fremen it included peoples from all over the place that joined up. It probably comes off as more of a Fremen jihad because of the prominent position of the Fedaykin, but if I had to guess the Fremen were probably in the minority of actual members of the jihad.

I do think some sort of riot was inevitable, but I think part of the crux of Dune is that it didn't have to start on Dune or with Paul. That was Paul's choice, albeit in part as a result of him being caught up in a BG Missionaria setup designed for him or someone like him. The whole thing was a setup; all Paul did was decline to veto it. Instead he thought he'd bend it to his own purpose, which he soon learned was a vain fantasy. He thought his powers would enable him to overcome all obstances, except that as Scytale points out in DM his own power is the obstance he couldn't overcome until the end of DM. I actually think the BG would have found another way to initiate the jihad if Paul hadn't done so. Their plan involving the Baron and Shaddam might have fallen through, but they could always bide their time and find an alternate genetic path to the KH and do the whole thing over again if left to their own devices.

Which reminds me, I never did get around to making that thread about the Grand Plan in Dune...
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Apr 2016 14:27

If it hadn't been Paul and the Fremen it would have been Paulette and Feyd's son (KH) and the Sardaukar.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby georgiedenbro » 25 Apr 2016 20:18

Freakzilla wrote:If it hadn't been Paul and the Fremen it would have been Paulette and Feyd's son (KH) and the Sardaukar.


Right. But I meant if the bloodline as such was lost for some reason (for instance if Yueh hadn't saved Paul and Jessica) that wouldn't have forstalled the jihad for long. From what Mohiam said there was a tension building in the entire human race that needed to be released, subliminally something like a sexual tension. While Dune was an ideal place to deliberately initiate the jihad due to its spice production in practice we know that the Missionaria had planted similar seeds on countless worlds in the event a mahdi myth should be needed by the BG. No doubt an insurrection could have begun somewhere else as well using a different messiah so long as it fulfilled the BG plan. All a revolt would need to do is secure Arrakis as their first target in order to make a coup viable in the long term. As it was the KH project 'worked as intended.'
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby xcalibur » 26 Apr 2016 04:20

georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:If it hadn't been Paul and the Fremen it would have been Paulette and Feyd's son (KH) and the Sardaukar.


Right. But I meant if the bloodline as such was lost for some reason (for instance if Yueh hadn't saved Paul and Jessica) that wouldn't have forstalled the jihad for long. From what Mohiam said there was a tension building in the entire human race that needed to be released, subliminally something like a sexual tension. While Dune was an ideal place to deliberately initiate the jihad due to its spice production in practice we know that the Missionaria had planted similar seeds on countless worlds in the event a mahdi myth should be needed by the BG. No doubt an insurrection could have begun somewhere else as well using a different messiah so long as it fulfilled the BG plan. All a revolt would need to do is secure Arrakis as their first target in order to make a coup viable in the long term. As it was the KH project 'worked as intended.'


very true. the jihad is a monumental force that was waiting to come into play. all it took was a Kwisatz Haderach as deified leader to be the catalyst.

from the end of book one - Dune:

Dune, p.199 wrote:He remained silent, thinking like the seed he was, thinking with the race consciousness he had first experienced as terrible purpose. He found that he no longer could hate the Bene Gesserit or the Emperor or even the Harkonnens. They were all caught up in the need of their race to renew its scattered inheritance, to cross and mingle and infuse their bloodlines in a great new pooling of genes. And the race knew only one sure way for this - the ancient way, the tried and certain way that rolled over everything in its path: jihad.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Naib » 26 Apr 2016 11:00

georgiedenbro wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:If it hadn't been Paul and the Fremen it would have been Paulette and Feyd's son (KH) and the Sardaukar.


Right. But I meant if the bloodline as such was lost for some reason (for instance if Yueh hadn't saved Paul and Jessica) that wouldn't have forstalled the jihad for long. From what Mohiam said there was a tension building in the entire human race that needed to be released, subliminally something like a sexual tension. While Dune was an ideal place to deliberately initiate the jihad due to its spice production in practice we know that the Missionaria had planted similar seeds on countless worlds in the event a mahdi myth should be needed by the BG. No doubt an insurrection could have begun somewhere else as well using a different messiah so long as it fulfilled the BG plan. All a revolt would need to do is secure Arrakis as their first target in order to make a coup viable in the long term. As it was the KH project 'worked as intended.'


I think the BG had been quietly hedging their bets and had Salusa Secundus in their back pockets as a possible focus to begin their jihad. I think if Jessica had given birth to a girl and she had wed Feyd. That child would have been sent to SS in order to complete training and become a puppet figurehead for the witches.

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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Apr 2016 11:47

Naib wrote:I think the BG had been quietly hedging their bets and had Salusa Secundus in their back pockets as a possible focus to begin their jihad.


Just remember that if Arrakis was not secured very quickly by a revolting faction the Guild would simply cut them off and refuse transport, and they'd be stuck on whatever planet they were on. The only viable way to pursue a jihad would be to first secure the Guild's cooperation.

I think if Jessica had given birth to a girl and she had wed Feyd. That child would have been sent to SS in order to complete training and become a puppet figurehead for the witches.


We should probably assume that Paulette would have been brought up as a BG, either trained directly by Jessica or else sent to a BG facility for education. One she was to wed Feyd, Paulette could then train the KH in the BG ways, which are supposedly far superior to Sardaukar methods. Recall that Paul was trained on Caladan by Jessica, Thufir, Duncan and Gurney.

Another issue is that the conditions on SS didn't merely involve a hostile environment, but also a quasi-religion to unite the Sardaukar loyalty. This was a similar method to what the BG were planning for the Fremen, but it necessarily involved manipulating the trainees into subscribing to the dogma. While the BG use this method regularly to control the masses, they don't appear to believe in telling lies in this way to fellow Sisters. It's especially impossible in the case of RM's. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure it would have been possible for a BG to train on SS under such conditions even if it was desirable. Since the BG believe their methods are the most advanced in the Empire I'm not convinced there would have been any value in them subjecting the KH to any training system other than theirs.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Naib » 26 Apr 2016 14:22

georgiedenbro wrote:
Naib wrote:I think the BG had been quietly hedging their bets and had Salusa Secundus in their back pockets as a possible focus to begin their jihad.


Just remember that if Arrakis was not secured very quickly by a revolting faction the Guild would simply cut them off and refuse transport, and they'd be stuck on whatever planet they were on. The only viable way to pursue a jihad would be to first secure the Guild's cooperation.

I think if Jessica had given birth to a girl and she had wed Feyd. That child would have been sent to SS in order to complete training and become a puppet figurehead for the witches.


We should probably assume that Paulette would have been brought up as a BG, either trained directly by Jessica or else sent to a BG facility for education. One she was to wed Feyd, Paulette could then train the KH in the BG ways, which are supposedly far superior to Sardaukar methods. Recall that Paul was trained on Caladan by Jessica, Thufir, Duncan and Gurney.

Another issue is that the conditions on SS didn't merely involve a hostile environment, but also a quasi-religion to unite the Sardaukar loyalty. This was a similar method to what the BG were planning for the Fremen, but it necessarily involved manipulating the trainees into subscribing to the dogma. While the BG use this method regularly to control the masses, they don't appear to believe in telling lies in this way to fellow Sisters. It's especially impossible in the case of RM's. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not sure it would have been possible for a BG to train on SS under such conditions even if it was desirable. Since the BG believe their methods are the most advanced in the Empire I'm not convinced there would have been any value in them subjecting the KH to any training system other than theirs.


I can see your point. When I meant going to SS to finish training, I was thinking military training, but I guess Paulette's child would have at had Leto, Duncan, Gurney and the Baron Harkonnen (assuming kanly was called off) to train him. Thufir might have died before being able to train the next generation.

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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Apr 2016 14:25

Naib wrote:Thufir might have died before being able to train the next generation.


There was always Piter :dance:
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Naib » 26 Apr 2016 15:02

georgiedenbro wrote:
Naib wrote:Thufir might have died before being able to train the next generation.


There was always Piter :dance:


Yeah. And pugs make great weapons. :whistle:

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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby xcalibur » 26 Apr 2016 21:44

Consider these points:

• the RM was concerned about both Feyd and Paul being killed in combat, which would've been a significant setback.
• Hasimir Fenring was almost a KH, and Lady Fenring considered seducing Feyd-Rautha.
• the Emperor suspected the Baron of plotting against him.

based on all this, the BG had backup plans for attaining their KH and starting jihad. if the Atreides line didn't bear fruit, they could've used Feyd-Rautha to breed a KH (presumably with the Fenring line). from there, the KH could take advantage of the Sardaukar warrior religion to consolidate power. due to how precarious the political situation was on Arrakis, it would not have been too difficult to stage a coup. with a KH in power, a fanatical and well-trained army, and control of the spice, the stage would be set for jihad.

I think Paul Maud'dib commanding the Fremen was the perfect storm for jihad, but the other way (a Fenring KH commanding the Sardaukar) would have conceivably worked too.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby georgiedenbro » 26 Apr 2016 23:11

xcalibur wrote:based on all this, the BG had backup plans for attaining their KH and starting jihad.


I expect they had parallel bloodlines in progress but they wouldn't have been as matured as the one culminating in the Atreides/Harkonnen union. They definitely needed a KH for their plan, though, since it seems the Missionaria planted legends among the local people that only a KH could fulfill. It's great security against anyone else trying to make use of their work since no one except the BG could foreseeably create a KH.


if the Atreides line didn't bear fruit, they could've used Feyd-Rautha to breed a KH (presumably with the Fenring line).


This could have taken quite a while, though. I don't know what kind of deadline the BG were facing to achieve the KH since if they waited around too long the jihad would likely have begun on its own. There was another catastrophe waiting to happen as well, which was the Fremen terraforming project. In a few hundred years Arrakis would be far less amenable to spice mining, at which point someone (many someones) would come in to try to put a stop to it, which could itself trigger the Fremen to go mad and begin the jihad. They didn't even really need a special leader to hold spice mining hostage.

from there, the KH could take advantage of the Sardaukar warrior religion to consolidate power. due to how precarious the political situation was on Arrakis, it would not have been too difficult to stage a coup. with a KH in power, a fanatical and well-trained army, and control of the spice, the stage would be set for jihad.


On this point I'll disagree, since the BG would surely prefer to use a people they had already groomed for the KH. I guess it's possible they had influenced Sardaukar education as well in some way, but it would have to have been utterly covert with no RM's visible on Salusa since I doubt Shaddam would have tolerated them undermining his army. The process wouldn't have been nearly as integrated into their culture as the mahdi myth was in Fremen culture. Anyhow at the first sign of the BG attempting a coup among the Sardaukar Shaddam could have just ordered the BG worlds eliminated immediately. It would seem like a much riskier plan than using a fighting force they could develop for themselves in secret.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby Serkanner » 27 Apr 2016 04:22

xcalibur wrote: and Lady Fenring considered seducing Feyd-Rautha.


She did seduce Feyd and bore his child.
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Re: Question about Fremen motivation in Paul's Jihad

Postby lotek » 27 Apr 2016 05:18

Naib wrote:
georgiedenbro wrote:
Naib wrote:Thufir might have died before being able to train the next generation.


There was always Piter :dance:


Yeah. And pugs make great weapons. :whistle:



"A madman," the Baron said. "But all Fremen are a little mad."

"Mad?"

"His people scream his name as they leap into battle. The women throw their pug dogs at us and hurl themselves onto our knives to open a wedge for their men to attack us. They have no . . . no . . . decency!"
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