Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

For some time I have a curiosity, especially after reading various reviews. As I said, I was reading some of the prequels/sequels (I know, that sucks ), in which this idea is strongly supported. But is it really the case?
In the canonical books, the axolotl tanks aren't described in detail, and their nature is rather vague. Duncan's memories of these tanks are also unclear. Something about tubes and machines plus female flesh.
The idea is that in the unholy books I mentioned, the HM are portrayed as reanimated axolotl tanks. And I've never accepted that. FH says clearly that the HM are descended from Fish Speakers and the scattered BG sisters.
But maybe I'm wrong? Therefore I want to know your opinion.

Another question(s): what do you think that has led HM ​​become what they are? A very harsh environment? A deliberate choice? Were they enslaved by The Enemy and managed to escape, but with a very high price (the loss of humanity)?

DragEgusku wrote:For some time I have a curiosity, especially after reading various reviews. As I said, I was reading some of the prequels/sequels (I know, that sucks ), in which this idea is strongly supported. But is it really the case?
In the canonical books, the axolotl tanks aren't described in detail, and their nature is rather vague. Duncan's memories of these tanks are also unclear. Something about tubes and machines plus female flesh.
The idea is that in the unholy books I mentioned, the HM are portrayed as reanimated axolotl tanks. And I've never accepted that. FH says clearly that the HM are descended from Fish Speakers and the scattered BG sisters.
But maybe I'm wrong? Therefore I want to know your opinion.

The Axlotl tanks were Tleilaxu women and later Bene Gesserit volunteers. I won't discuss what the prequels/sequels say in a Dune forum. You can ask that question there.

Another question(s): what do you think that has led HM ​​become what they are? A very harsh environment? A deliberate choice? Were they enslaved by The Enemy and managed to escape, but with a very high price (the loss of humanity)?

But where could they go? It was a universe beset by Honored Matres and other
forces. It was a universe of scattered planets peopled mostly by humans who
wanted only to live out their lives in peace -- accepting Bene Gesserit guidance
in some places, squirming under Honored Matre suppression in many regions,
mostly hoping to govern themselves as best they could, the perennial dream of
democracy, and then there were always the unknowns. And always the lesson of
the Honored Matres! Murbella's clues said Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in
extremis formed the Honored Matres. Fish Speaker democracy become Honored Matre
autocracy! The clues were too numerous to ignore. But why had they emphasized
unconscious compulsions with their T-probes, cellular induction, and sexual
prowess?
~CH:D

Freakzilla wrote:

DragEgusku wrote:For some time I have a curiosity, especially after reading various reviews. As I said, I was reading some of the prequels/sequels (I know, that sucks ), in which this idea is strongly supported. But is it really the case?
In the canonical books, the axolotl tanks aren't described in detail, and their nature is rather vague. Duncan's memories of these tanks are also unclear. Something about tubes and machines plus female flesh.
The idea is that in the unholy books I mentioned, the HM are portrayed as reanimated axolotl tanks. And I've never accepted that. FH says clearly that the HM are descended from Fish Speakers and the scattered BG sisters.
But maybe I'm wrong? Therefore I want to know your opinion.

The Axlotl tanks were Tleilaxu women and later Bene Gesserit volunteers. I won't discuss what the prequels/sequels say in a Dune forum. You can ask that question there.

OK. But I asked in the context of the original books.

Freakzilla wrote:But where could they go? It was a universe beset by Honored Matres and other
forces. It was a universe of scattered planets peopled mostly by humans who
wanted only to live out their lives in peace -- accepting Bene Gesserit guidance
in some places, squirming under Honored Matre suppression in many regions,
mostly hoping to govern themselves as best they could, the perennial dream of
democracy, and then there were always the unknowns. And always the lesson of
the Honored Matres! Murbella's clues said Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in
extremis formed the Honored Matres. Fish Speaker democracy become Honored Matre
autocracy! The clues were too numerous to ignore. But why had they emphasized
unconscious compulsions with their T-probes, cellular induction, and sexual
prowess?
~CH:D

I think you misunderstood me. I asked how became the HM so evil and twisted. I guess that they were not born evil, so somehow they have become what they are. Due to extreme conditions?
Of course, all we can do is to speculate, but I like to speculate.

Well there is the fact that for RMs, melange withdrawal is quite a harrowing experience to say the least, so the ones lost in the Scattering having to find a substitute could have easily produced a tradition of crazy along the years.

That and their orange meth.

I think Teg internalized it the most simply, they were adrenaline addicts, always looking for the next, better high. Did you read Chapterhouse: Dune? Pay close attention to RM Lucilla's conversations with GHM Dama.

Freakzilla wrote:I think Teg internalized it the most simply, they were adrenaline addicts, always looking for the next, better high. Did you read Chapterhouse: Dune? Pay close attention to RM Lucilla's conversations with GHM Dama.

Yes, I've read Ch:D, but a long time ago and now I do not have a copy. Lotek's theory is interesting - the loss of spice drove them crazy. But not all the people from The Scattering became like the HM, even if they have not had spice. So perhaps something else triggered the change.
Freakzilla, you can make a summary of the conversations of which you speak?

DragEgusku wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I think Teg internalized it the most simply, they were adrenaline addicts, always looking for the next, better high. Did you read Chapterhouse: Dune? Pay close attention to RM Lucilla's conversations with GHM Dama.

Yes, I've read Ch:D, but a long time ago and now I do not have a copy. Lotek's theory is interesting - the loss of spice drove them crazy. But not all the people from The Scattering became like the HM, even if they have not had spice. So perhaps something else triggered the change.
Freakzilla, you can make a summary of the conversations of which you speak?

I've summarized the entire book: Chapterhouse:Dune (Sort by subject, ascending.)

I'm sure you could find the book online somewhere.

Maybe I'm crazy too, but I hate reading online books, I do prefer printed books.
But I'll read your summaries. Thanks for the links.

Sorry I can't address your question more specifically, but I have to work occasionally. Damn real life is always getting in the way.

I think that like everything else in Dune there is no simple answer, and there is no complete answer.
The best we can do is try to picture the rest of the iceberg by observation of the emerged part, and by learning this process through repeted reads of the books.

I'm not saying that the melange withdrawal was the reason, just one of the factors, since not all HMs stem from RMs, it's got to be more than that.

And if Teg calls them adrenaline junkies, it has to mean more than just the basic meaning of the words.

So yeah, the only way to figure this out is find all related quotes and take a look at the picture it creates.