Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?
Posted: 03 Jul 2014 09:34
But it stated "all the men died trying to awaken the male OM".
What is the logical reason?
What is the logical reason?
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Well, maybe the men who are smart enough to figure this out are not stupid enough to take the water of life, seeing that it's a lethal poison, and presumably hard to find outside Arrakis.DragEgusku wrote:Womens could discover/invent techniques workout that eases access to the OM, but the men were so stupid that they have not ever done this? Hard to believe.
Dune is fiction. It's logical within the parameters Herbert established. I'll explain this further in response to your next comment.DragEgusku wrote:Because it's simply illogical and I dislike this?lotek wrote:Why does it bother you so much?In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.
You misunderstood me, DragEgusbo. My phrase for "manly problems" was my way of saying that most of the men just didn't have that mystical instinct which the BG have. Mentats indeed do perceive things more acutely than most, but they do so only within the confines of logic, and BG's mysticism lies beyond their logical understanding. And as some of as have been trying to tell you before as clearly as we could, in order for men to access OM, they have to be specially bred and trained by BG to be KH. The men of Dune just can't access OM without those qualifications. They can be trained with the Voice and the Weirding Way, but they don't have the biological preparations for OM. Even if you find this illogical, keep in mind that in any work of work of fiction, especially where the science is made up and nonexistent, it follows its own logic. Herbert established the rules Dune, and by being consistent with his own established rules, he is therefore logical. The logic in the work of science-fiction and fantasy and the logic of real life are two different things.DragEgusku wrote:The same could be said about women, that they are distracted with womanly problems. And the Mentats should be capable of seeing beyond the confines of their reality. After all, their training is "the endless search".Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Still, in the context of Frank Herbert's Dune universe, I'm more inclined to believe that the women (those who are bred and trained to be BG, of course) are better able to access OM than the majority of the men of Dune. Most of the guys, especially the Mentats, get easily distracted by a multitude of manly problems, and thus are unable to see beyond the confines of their reality. Paul on the other hand, thanks to his genetic makeup, special BG training, and oracular dreams, was the only guy in the original Dune book to better perceive the other reality like the BG. Leto II could do it thanks to being Paul's son and especially due to Chani's Spice overdose, which enabled him to remember past memories like Alia. It just takes a special combination of genetics, circumstances, and luck to produce men who can access OM. The only other means of BG training that you can give to men without genetic predisposition is the Weirding Way and perhaps the Voice, but that's it.
In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.
The Bene Gesserit didn't use the Water of Life, except for Jessica, Paul and Alia. Before that they used the Rossak Poison or other "Illuminating Poisons", afterwards they used Spice Essence.Naïve mind wrote:Well, maybe the men who are smart enough to figure this out are not stupid enough to take the water of life, seeing that it's a lethal poison, and presumably hard to find outside Arrakis.DragEgusku wrote:Womens could discover/invent techniques workout that eases access to the OM, but the men were so stupid that they have not ever done this? Hard to believe.
I know it's a little off topic- do you think the Fremen RMs weren't BG? I never thought about this.Freakzilla wrote: The Bene Gesserit didn't use the Water of Life, except for Jessica, Paul and Alia.
Freakzilla wrote: Before that they used the Rossak Poison or other "Illuminating Poisons", afterwards they used Spice Essence.
DragEgusku wrote:For me, one aspect of Herbert's books was disturbing.
Why only women were able to access the OM (although only the female line),
and men could not access the male genetic lines?
Well, if it comes down to a mystical instinct, I guess the whole discussion was futile. It is impossible to argue on the mystical basis.Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Dune is fiction. It's logical within the parameters Herbert established. I'll explain this further in response to your next comment.DragEgusku wrote:Because it's simply illogical and I dislike this?lotek wrote:Why does it bother you so much?In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.
You misunderstood me, DragEgusbo. My phrase for "manly problems" was my way of saying that most of the men just didn't have that mystical instinct which the BG have. Mentats indeed do perceive things more acutely than most, but they do so only within the confines of logic, and BG's mysticism lies beyond their logical understanding. And as some of as have been trying to tell you before as clearly as we could, in order for men to access OM, they have to be specially bred and trained by BG to be KH. The men of Dune just can't access OM without those qualifications. They can be trained with the Voice and the Weirding Way, but they don't have the biological preparations for OM. Even if you find this illogical, keep in mind that in any work of work of fiction, especially where the science is made up and nonexistent, it follows its own logic. Herbert established the rules Dune, and by being consistent with his own established rules, he is therefore logical. The logic in the work of science-fiction and fantasy and the logic of real life are two different things.DragEgusku wrote:The same could be said about women, that they are distracted with womanly problems. And the Mentats should be capable of seeing beyond the confines of their reality. After all, their training is "the endless search".Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:Still, in the context of Frank Herbert's Dune universe, I'm more inclined to believe that the women (those who are bred and trained to be BG, of course) are better able to access OM than the majority of the men of Dune. Most of the guys, especially the Mentats, get easily distracted by a multitude of manly problems, and thus are unable to see beyond the confines of their reality. Paul on the other hand, thanks to his genetic makeup, special BG training, and oracular dreams, was the only guy in the original Dune book to better perceive the other reality like the BG. Leto II could do it thanks to being Paul's son and especially due to Chani's Spice overdose, which enabled him to remember past memories like Alia. It just takes a special combination of genetics, circumstances, and luck to produce men who can access OM. The only other means of BG training that you can give to men without genetic predisposition is the Weirding Way and perhaps the Voice, but that's it.
In conclusion, I see no reason (logically justified) for that men can not have other memories.
As i said before, if you are not satisfied with BG being the only ones with OM, then write some fan fiction about how a male equivalent of the BG would be able to drink Water of Life and access OM without being KH, and without dying. I would read it. There's nothing stopping you from exploring Frank Herbert's universe in your own unique way.
The reason is they can't do it, because they can't change the drug so the process won't kill them.DragEgusku wrote:But it stated "all the men died trying to awaken the male OM".
What is the logical reason?
I'm pretty sure there's a quote on this, I think when Jessica first realizes the Missionaria has left failsafes for stranded BG, which worked so well with the Fremen "that they named their priests after reverend mothers". And we all know how true that was. The BG has a term, wild Reverend Mothers, to designate any woman who changed the drug without formal training from them.D Pope wrote: I know it's a little off topic- do you think the Fremen RMs weren't BG? I never thought about this.
I don't think the Fremen RMs shared the same goals as the BG and I don't think the BG themselves would consider them part of their order. They didn't have prana-bindu training, Voice, etc.lotek wrote:I'm pretty sure there's a quote on this, I think when Jessica first realizes the Missionaria has left failsafes for stranded BG, which worked so well with the Fremen "that they named their priests after reverend mothers". And we all know how true that was. The BG has a term, wild Reverend Mothers, to designate any woman who changed the drug without formal training from them.D Pope wrote: I know it's a little off topic- do you think the Fremen RMs weren't BG? I never thought about this.
As for being BG or not, I remember when Jessica trains Farad'n, and that when the Bashar walks in on the very end of the initiation , it reads something like "he wasn' a Corrino anymore, he was now BG."
I think like all things Dune, it's not a clear cut, but I'd be inclined to think that you do not become them but the changes you go through
So then it's down to do you believe thinking like a group makes you a part of that group or not, I guess.
They were obviously heavily influenced by the BG Missionaria Protectiva.D Pope wrote:That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
add that they probably began BG.
I was incorrect earlier, it was the Fremen who discovered the Rossak poison. So it's not a stretch to imagine someone taking the WoL. I wonder who the first crazy MF who tried drowning a sandworm and drinking it's death bile was.Hard to think that
they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.
I don't think she (Rebecca) had any special training. Hebrew school?Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
from HoD got her initial training?
Makes the drowned worm bile story a little more plausible, huh?Almost related story;
I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.
I'm sorry you're not getting the answers you want but I don't think the discussion is futile. I've enjoyed thinking about your ideas and turning what I think I know about the BG sideways & upside down to make them fit. You've had an original idea and you've presented it well, I'm serious when I say thank you.DragEgusku wrote: Well, if it comes down to a mystical instinct, I guess the whole discussion was futile. It is impossible to argue on the mystical basis.
Freakzilla wrote:They were obviously heavily influenced by the BG Missionaria Protectiva.D Pope wrote:That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
add that they probably began BG.
My thoughts exactly.Freakzilla wrote:I was incorrect earlier, it was the Fremen who discovered the Rossak poison. So it's not a stretch to imagine someone taking the WoL. I wonder who the first crazy MF who tried drowning a sandworm and drinking it's death bile was.Hard to think that
they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.
Freakzilla wrote:I don't think she (Rebecca) had any special training. Hebrew school?Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
from HoD got her initial training?
Yeah, crazy stuff! How many people died perfecting that formulae?Freakzilla wrote:Makes the drowned worm bile story a little more plausible, huh?Almost related story;
I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.
Man, I've always wondered that about even simpler stuff. Take bread, an almost universal staple food. How did people come up with that? Or cooking with fire? "Hey, we have fire! It gives us light and warmth, but it destroys anything it touches. Let's put our last mammoth steak on and see what happens!"D Pope wrote:That pretty much sums up what I'd thought except to
add that they probably began BG. Hard to think that
they would have stumbled into changing the WoL.
Does anyone remember where the young Jewish girl
from HoD got her initial training?
Almost related story;
I saw a thing on Nat'l Geo about the beer like stuff
some Amazon tribe makes. They start with impressively
poisonous tree roots, dry them in the sun for a long
while, soak them in a half sunk canoe for a longer while,
pound them into mush, and then have the young girls
chew the mush before spitting it into a big pot that then
gets buried for a week or two while it ferments. I'm sure
I'm leaving out some critical steps but I can't help but
wonder how they ever happened upon this recipe.
This makes me think that there should be a symmetry: female with female OM <-> male with male OM. The quote clearly states that access of the male OM should be easy for a male.Paul said: "There is in each of us an ancient force that takes and an
ancient force that gives. A man finds little difficulty facing that place within
himself where the taking force dwells, but it's almost impossible for him to see
into the giving force without changing into something other than man. For a
woman, the situation is reversed."
Jessica looked up, found Chani was staring at her while listening to Paul.
"Do you understand me, Mother?" Paul asked.
She could only nod.
"These things are so ancient within us," Paul said, "that they're ground
into each separate cell of our bodies. We're shaped by such forces. You can say
to yourself, 'Yes, I see how such a thing may be.' But when you look inward and
confront the raw force of your own life unshielded, you see your peril. You see
that this could overwhelm you. The greatest peril to the Giver is the force that
takes. The greatest peril to the Taker is the force that gives. It's as easy to
be overwhelmed by giving as by taking."
"And you, my son," Jessica asked, "are you one who gives or one who takes?"
"I'm at the fulcrum," he said. "I cannot give without taking and I cannot
take without . . . "