A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

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Re: A (shadow) male Bene Gesserit-like organization?

Postby DragEgusku » 27 Nov 2014 10:57

georgiedenbro wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "god." It sounds like you're just suggesting that a person should want to participate in the world, but not try to control it. We can already do that - it's called not being an asshole. And if this person should want to learn and improve himself - we already do that too, it's called being a thinker. Beyond these two things, why call your hero a "god"? Frank didn't reject heroes, I think he'd have recognized that there can be real heroes. What he rejects in Dune is the idea that we should be following heroes instead of following our own minds. Anytime you accept someone else's lead you turn off your brain. There can't be a "god" unless he's worshipped; otherwise he's just a man with some abilities as we all are.

By god, I mean that he is a very capable person. I imagine him as a human analog of the Ship from the Pandora series. But I'm still developing this idea. One thing is clear: he is not a man-machine hybrid, but an entirely biological organism. The ship in which he lives is his environment, his world and his "body" (figurative sense, not literal).

georgiedenbro wrote:As for why a male could not survive the agony, it's because of the inherent differences between men and women according to the Dune series. Women aren't 'just a man with boobs', they have very different traits. You seem disturbed that there are no male RM's...are you also disturbed that we never see a female Guild Navigator? Because this is the symmetry you're talking about; woman to hold the keys to genetic past, man to look forward into the future. Maybe you think this is a stereotype, but Frank knows this and goes further with it. The Tleilaxu ask the same question you do. It takes them 12,000 more years than it took the BG, but they DO come up with a way for men to have memories of other lives. The Tleilaxu serial memories is an analogue to what the RM's can do.

Well, Frank himself says that all human beings are capable of prescience. Specifically, Leto reach this conclusion in CoD. If all human beings are capable of prescience, then I do not see why the same is not true for OM. Theoretically, nothing prevents a woman to become a Navigator.

georgiedenbro wrote:Why can a man not survive the agony? Because the agony is a type of birth, as someone mentioned. Men aren't designed to give birth, women are! Frank takes this fact very seriously. The KH needs to be a man with a women's instincts, who can be a giver (e.g. of life, the passer on of the genes and racial history) and as well as a taker. No man until Paul had the ability to realize the need to give of himself to the lives of others, to literally give of his own body for the purpose of fostering a new life. Paul called himself the ultimate servant, and notice that the BG always say they exist only to serve. This is a "giver" maxim. It's not because other men were too selfish, it's because their genes made them incapable of it to the full extent needed. Notice that the Tleilaxu came up with their own version of the agony, in the re-awakening of ghola memories. In DM this is described as a type of birth as well, and Hayt himself recognizes that even he wouldn't have survived it without his Zensunni training; compare this to the RM's needing to have been BG trained to survive their agonies.

That seems to me too mystical. It's like saying that the ability to have memory depends on the ability to give birth. But memories are only information, I do not see what that has to do with the ability to give birth.

georgiedenbro wrote:There is no secret male BG cabal, there can't be one. But if 'male-type RM's' is what you're looking for, then either the KH or the Tleilaxu gholas/masters will have to suffice for you. If you don't like it then you are probably in agreement with the Sisterhood in your distaste for their 'male' methods.

Never say never is my favorite motto.

georgiedenbro wrote:But here's the real kicker: We do get to meet a male Reverend Mother in the Dune series who is not Paul or Leto II. Can you guess who?

Hint: He isn't a robot from the prequels!