Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

As Paul was a Kwizatz Haderach (or a close approximation) a full generation ahead of time, would Feyd have also filled that role had he taken the Water of Life? Since they were both so close to the final products it seems to me that he would have the same potential.

If he survived.

I think as close as Feyd was in the breeding program to the KH, he made for a dangerous opponent to Paul, but he wasn't a near miss like Fenring. He lacked whatever it was in the Atreides line that allowed Paul to "ascend" to KH status with only half of the expected Harkonnen stock. The question I have considering the secretive nature of the BG breeding program is how close of a relative Count Fenring might be to Paul.

Apjak wrote:The question I have considering the secretive nature of the BG breeding program is how close of a relative Count Fenring might be to Paul.

I don't think there's any indication that they were related at all. I believe it was a parallel breeding line.

Freakzilla wrote:

Apjak wrote:The question I have considering the secretive nature of the BG breeding program is how close of a relative Count Fenring might be to Paul.

I don't think there's any indication that they were related at all. I believe it was a parallel breeding line.

That's my takeaway, but it isn't explicit.

COUNT HASIMIR FENRING (10,133-10,225)
A distaff cousin of House Corrino...

I guess that would make him Paul's cousin too, huh?

Yes, but closer to the Atreides side?

Apjak wrote:I think as close as Feyd was in the breeding program to the KH, he made for a dangerous opponent to Paul, but he wasn't a near miss like Fenring. He lacked whatever it was in the Atreides line that allowed Paul to "ascend" to KH status with only half of the expected Harkonnen stock.

Remember that the Bene Gesserit wanted to breed Harkonnen traits into the Atreides heir (Paul, should have been Paulette or Pauline), and then marry that heir off to another Harkonnen. Their son would've been 2/4th Harkonnen, 1/4th Atreides, and 1/4th Tanidia Nerus's ancestry. Edit:. He'd be 1/4th Mrs. Rautha, not Nerus.

Being 'too Harkonnen' might not disqualify you from being a KH, at least in the eyes of the Bene Gesserit. The Atreides line may have been incorporated into their plans solely because of them being of royal blood (solidifying the claim to the throne of Feyd and Paulette's offspring).

That being said, while the BG planned to marry the Atreides and Harkonnen families, those plans may have been entirely distinct from their breeding programme.

I think the intention was to preserve both bloodlines.

Freakzilla wrote:I think the intention was to preserve both bloodlines.

As per the book But Pauline and Feyd's kid may not have been the intended KH. It might be a bastard of Feyd (or Pauline), or the kids of one of Jessica's other children.

Naïve mind wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I think the intention was to preserve both bloodlines.

As per the book But Pauline and Feyd's kid may not have been the intended KH. It might be a bastard of Feyd (or Pauline), or the kids of one of Jessica's other children.

I think Dune makes it pretty clear that the child of Feyd and "Pauline" (I love that) would have been the fruition of the KH breeding program. The expected "Pauline" would most likely have been groomed by the BG in a fashion similar to that of Princess Irulan, to be the ideal mate for Feyd. Then I think parallel project was keeping a male heir from arising from Shaddam IV so that the BG could manoeuvre "KH Rautha-Atreides" onto the throne if they saw fit.

I do think that's clear, but in Naive's defense, I don't think FH comes right out and says that... but he rarely does about anything.

And again, she looked at the sister. The optimum cross for this female
Atreides had been lost . . . killed by Paul.
~DM

This is RM Mohiam thinking while negotiating with Paul for his bloodline, she is obviously refering to Feyd and Alia.

Freakzilla wrote:And again, she looked at the sister. The optimum cross for this female
Atreides had been lost . . . killed by Paul.
~DM

This is RM Mohiam thinking while negotiating with Paul for his bloodline, she is obviously refering to Feyd and Alia.

I capitulate. I could argue that Jessica was ordered to bear "only daughters", plural, but it's obvious that the KH was meant to be an inbred Harkonnen.

Which is interesting, when you think about it, because, certainly in the first novel, the Baron is depicted as almost the antithesis of the 'human' ideal espoused by the Bene Gesserit.

Naïve mind wrote:it's obvious that the KH was meant to be an inbred Harkonnen.

The Lady Jessica was ordered to produce an Atreides daughter. The plan was
to inbreed this daughter with Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen, a nephew of the Baron
Vladimir, with the high probability of a Kwisatz Haderach from that union.
~Dune, Appendix III: Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes

Which is interesting, when you think about it, because, certainly in the first novel, the Baron is depicted as almost the antithesis of the 'human' ideal espoused by the Bene Gesserit.

How like a Duncan. They measure all evil against the Harkonnens. How little they
know of evil.
~Leto II

What's interesting is I never got the impression that Feyd was anything special. Sure he was a good hand-to-hand combatant, but he never seemed all that intelligent or special, like Paul. I would think the potential parent of a super-being would have possessed a genius-level intellect to go along with the physical gifts.

Frybread wrote:What's interesting is I never got the impression that Feyd was anything special. Sure he was a good hand-to-hand combatant, but he never seemed all that intelligent or special, like Paul. I would think the potential parent of a super-being would have possessed a genius-level intellect to go along with the physical gifts.

He survived his uncle ... you need to be rather special to accomplish that, don't you think?

Glad to see some discussion come of this while I was gone.

Naïve mind wrote:the Baron is depicted as almost the antithesis of the 'human' ideal espoused by the Bene Gesserit.

I don't think that's supported. Think "gom Jabbar". I believe the Baron would have passed. RM Mohiam says that a human would stay in the trap to kill a threat to its species, meaning that critical thinking trumps instinct in real humans. I think the Baron shows calculation of that type in Dune, like when he brings Feyd in for a chat after the "pleasure-slave assassination incident". What makes the Baron interesting and distasteful is that he's Human dangerous rather than Animal dangerous.

Apjak wrote: I don't think that's supported. Think "gom Jabbar". I believe the Baron would have passed. RM Mohiam says that a human would stay in the trap to kill a threat to its species, meaning that critical thinking trumps instinct in real humans. I think the Baron shows calculation of that type in Dune, like when he brings Feyd in for a chat after the "pleasure-slave assassination incident". What makes the Baron interesting and distasteful is that he's Human dangerous rather than Animal dangerous.

Good counterexample. On the other hand, the Harkonnens are wasteful. They waste money (billions on troup transport to smash the Atreides), they waste people (guards, mentats, contrast Thufir Hawat being in the Atreides familiy for three generations). They have little idea (or interest in) the forces that keep society balanced, only in how to smash this balance.

Threats to the species? None of their concern.

And in a way they must represent the oil barons of the 19th and early 20th century, who just assumed that oil was plentiful, and theirs for the taking. The notion that they were making a society completely dependant on a substance for which there wasn't (and still isn't!) an effective substitute didn't occur to them.

Naïve mind wrote:And in a way they must represent the oil barons of the 19th and early 20th century, who just assumed that oil was plentiful, and theirs for the taking. The notion that they were making a society completely dependant on a substance for which there wasn't (and still isn't!) an effective substitute didn't occur to them.

Apjak wrote:

Naïve mind wrote:the Baron is depicted as almost the antithesis of the 'human' ideal espoused by the Bene Gesserit.

I don't think that's supported. Think "gom Jabbar". I believe the Baron would have passed.

Really? I get the impression that the Baron's nervous fidgeting is meant to mark him as "not human" in the BG sense: he doesn't have his own body under control.

And he saw the Baron clearly now. Leto watched the movements of the man's
hands: compulsive touchings--the edge of a plate, the handle of a spoon, a
finger tracing the fold of a jowl.

Those touching fingers! Leto watched the fat hands, the glittering jewels on
baby-fat hands--their compulsive wandering.

Good Counter-example.

I don't think the Baron was wasteful. He kept Piter around even though he distrusted and disliked him because he was still useful. He employed Thufir Hawat when Piter died suddenly! I don't think paying for troop transport is a good example, it was military genius. The Atreides NEVER would have expected that magnitude of attack BECAUSE the price would be prohibitive.

Freakzilla wrote:I don't think the Baron was wasteful. He kept Piter around even though he distrusted and disliked him because he was still useful. He employed Thufir Hawat when Piter died suddenly! I don't think paying for troop transport is a good example, it was military genius. The Atreides NEVER would have expected that magnitude of attack BECAUSE the price would be prohibitive.

Sometimes the unexpected is unexpected because it is dumb

Or, to rephrase that, it was obviously brilliant tactics, but a piss-poor strategy, assuming that his long-term goal was supplanting the Corrinos as Emperors of the Known Universe.

Military power lies with the party that can last the longest in war(*). In the Known Universe, that means paying the exhorbitant Guild troop transport costs. Which means you're better off training good fighting men than bringing lots of cheap cannon fodder. That's why the Emperor has the Sardaukar; that's why Gurney and Duncan's small strike force became a threat to Imperial power. That's why both Leto and Paul were so eager to win the hearts and minds of the Fremen.

The Baron had a man on the inside, and the smartest plan he can come up with is an all-out assault that costs him decades worth of profits from spice mining? It's a show of force, but it's not sustainable, and the Emperor knows it.

(*) One of the reasons the European countries ceased to be world powers: The subcontinent has to import most of its oil, steel, and you can forget about uranium.