Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:The example I've usually heard to illustrate Streaksy's point is Alien3 ruining the ending of Aliens by killing off Newt and Hicks.

I don't particularly agree with that example, but the principle holds. So why couldn't some of the stuff in Dune Messiah and Children ruin the ending of Dune?

Serkanner wrote:

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:The example I've usually heard to illustrate Streaksy's point is Alien3 ruining the ending of Aliens by killing off Newt and Hicks.

I don't particularly agree with that example, but the principle holds. So why couldn't some of the stuff in Dune Messiah and Children ruin the ending of Dune?

Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

For example: me having fun drinking beers is not ruined at the moment of drinking by the hang-over that inevitable follows.

Freakzilla wrote:I think a perfect example, if you took them seriously, would be Linkup and the Brian's Dune 7. They ruined the whole series.

Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

lotek wrote:Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.

Streaksy wrote:Dune 7 only ruins the series for me in the sense that I can't take it seriously, and know the series is doomed, in my mind, to incompletion. None of Brian's garbage counts, so Dune 7 is just a sign that it's all over. Nothing more. ;/

And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes. And the good part (drinking) is greater than the bad part (hangover) else it WOULD ruin it and nobody would do it. So if I adjust the variables to ACTUALLY suit my illustration, then it goes in MY favour.

And, look. I don't care. Like I said. If some people are happy to detatch from that and take each book as it is and put the future of the characters and universe out of their mind, I don't argue with that. Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect? Internet people are such facists.

And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes.

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:

Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

lotek wrote:Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.

So, you guys are aware that you're arguing opposite points, right?

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Of course, Dune could very easily exist without Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.

lotek wrote:The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Serkanner is saying that when you read Dune, you don't have to worry about Dune Messiah, you can just ignore it and take events and endings of the first book on their own. You're saying Dune "can't exist" without Messiah, that it's somehow incomplete, insufficient. Opposite arguments.

That's not what he said.

Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

And what I meant is that they can't exist without each other, because FH time and again said that ths story was about charismatic leaders and their fall from grace, so taking Dune as just an adventure story is a partial view of the whole picture.
Dune is not incomplete without DM, but the message is.

lotek wrote:The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.

Dune functions perfectly fine as a stand-alone story. It functioned fine for six years before Messiah was published, and it works just fine for all the readers who never go on to the sequels. Just because they don't all take away from it what you think they should, that doesn't mean it can't stand on its own.
Again, it's not what I think they should see in it, but what the author himself was driving at.

SandRider wrote:this machine kills fascists ....

Streaksy wrote:Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect?

Nekhrun wrote:There's still a MySpace?

Freakzilla wrote:

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Incidentally, I think that's why he chooses this path, why he decides to lead the Fremen instead of trying to stop the jihad right away. It's so he can be with Chani.

After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. Just
once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."
~Children of Dune

Dune Messiah wrote:
"No mentat knows what I believe!" She took two deep, shuddering breaths. "How dare you judge us?"
"Judge you? I don't judge."
"You've no idea how we were taught!"
"Both of you were taught to govern," he said. "You were conditioned to an overweening thirst for power. You were imbued with a shrewd grasp of politics and a deep understanding for the uses of war and ritual. Natural law? What natural law? That myth haunts human history. Haunts! It's a ghost. It's insubstantial, unreal. Is your Jihad a natural law?"
"Mentat jabber," she sneered.
"I'm a servant of the Atreides and I speak with candor," he said.

Naïve mind wrote:Even that may be a forty-year old rationalizing the decisions he made as a child.