Jihadicus

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lotek
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 31 Oct 2012 12:35

Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Serkanner » 31 Oct 2012 12:52

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:The example I've usually heard to illustrate Streaksy's point is Alien3 ruining the ending of Aliens by killing off Newt and Hicks.

I don't particularly agree with that example, but the principle holds. So why couldn't some of the stuff in Dune Messiah and Children ruin the ending of Dune?


Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

For example: me having fun drinking beers is not ruined at the moment of drinking by the hang-over that inevitable follows.
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lotek
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 31 Oct 2012 13:21

Serkanner wrote:
Cpt. Aramsham wrote:The example I've usually heard to illustrate Streaksy's point is Alien3 ruining the ending of Aliens by killing off Newt and Hicks.

I don't particularly agree with that example, but the principle holds. So why couldn't some of the stuff in Dune Messiah and Children ruin the ending of Dune?


Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

For example: me having fun drinking beers is not ruined at the moment of drinking by the hang-over that inevitable follows.


It makes more sense with beer :)
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Oct 2012 13:37

I think a perfect example, if you took them seriously, would be Linkup and the Brian's Dune 7. They ruined the whole series.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Serkanner » 31 Oct 2012 15:37

Freakzilla wrote:I think a perfect example, if you took them seriously, would be Linkup and the Brian's Dune 7. They ruined the whole series.


Disco!
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Streaksy » 31 Oct 2012 20:35

Dune 7 only ruins the series for me in the sense that I can't take it seriously, and know the series is doomed, in my mind, to incompletion. None of Brian's garbage counts, so Dune 7 is just a sign that it's all over. Nothing more. ;/

And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes. And the good part (drinking) is greater than the bad part (hangover) else it WOULD ruin it and nobody would do it. So if I adjust the variables to ACTUALLY suit my illustration, then it goes in MY favour.

And, look. I don't care. Like I said. If some people are happy to detatch from that and take each book as it is and put the future of the characters and universe out of their mind, I don't argue with that. Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect? Internet people are such facists.

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Freakzilla » 31 Oct 2012 21:25

For me, the sequels make the endings of the previous books better. :D

Especially GEoD and CoD.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Streaksy » 31 Oct 2012 21:32

I can't remember the ending of Heretics, but I love all the endings. I didn't say I didn't. :P It's just that knowing suffering follows takes a lot of the finallity out of it. ;D I wouldn't have it any other way, really. Just a shame the final climax will be denied to us. ;/

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby SandRider » 31 Oct 2012 21:39

this machine kills fascists ....
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 01 Nov 2012 03:01

Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

lotek wrote:Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.

So, you guys are aware that you're arguing opposite points, right?

Of course, Dune could very easily exist without Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 01 Nov 2012 05:33

Streaksy wrote:Dune 7 only ruins the series for me in the sense that I can't take it seriously, and know the series is doomed, in my mind, to incompletion. None of Brian's garbage counts, so Dune 7 is just a sign that it's all over. Nothing more. ;/

And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes. And the good part (drinking) is greater than the bad part (hangover) else it WOULD ruin it and nobody would do it. So if I adjust the variables to ACTUALLY suit my illustration, then it goes in MY favour.

And, look. I don't care. Like I said. If some people are happy to detatch from that and take each book as it is and put the future of the characters and universe out of their mind, I don't argue with that. Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect? Internet people are such facists.


I'm also a grammar nazi.

It's fascists...

And drinking beer isn't an epic journey with emotional spikes and twists and attatchments and climaxes.


For you maybe.
:lol:

But yeah, whatever.
Spice is the worm's gonads.

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lotek
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 01 Nov 2012 05:37

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:
Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

lotek wrote:Because they are like two sides of a coin, they can't exist without each other.

So, you guys are aware that you're arguing opposite points, right?


How so ?

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Of course, Dune could very easily exist without Dune Messiah and Children of Dune.


The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Cpt. Aramsham » 01 Nov 2012 09:34

Serkanner is saying that when you read Dune, you don't have to worry about Dune Messiah, you can just ignore it and take events and endings of the first book on their own. You're saying Dune "can't exist" without Messiah, that it's somehow incomplete, insufficient. Opposite arguments.

lotek wrote:The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.

Dune functions perfectly fine as a stand-alone story. It functioned fine for six years before Messiah was published, and it works just fine for all the readers who never go on to the sequels. Just because they don't all take away from it what you think they should, that doesn't mean it can't stand on its own.

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lotek
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 01 Nov 2012 10:39

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Serkanner is saying that when you read Dune, you don't have to worry about Dune Messiah, you can just ignore it and take events and endings of the first book on their own. You're saying Dune "can't exist" without Messiah, that it's somehow incomplete, insufficient. Opposite arguments.

That's not what he said.
Serkanner wrote:Because time is linear ... you are at one moment in the story. The characters at the end of Dune are not yet characters of Dune Messiah. Hence you have to take the climax of Dune as it is at that moment.

And what I meant is that they can't exist without each other, because FH time and again said that ths story was about charismatic leaders and their fall from grace, so taking Dune as just an adventure story is a partial view of the whole picture.
Dune is not incomplete without DM, but the message is.


lotek wrote:The fact that so many people feel betrayed by DM not living up to the swash buckling of Dune proves the opposite, Paul must fall for Frank to get his point on charismatic leaders through.

Dune functions perfectly fine as a stand-alone story. It functioned fine for six years before Messiah was published, and it works just fine for all the readers who never go on to the sequels. Just because they don't all take away from it what you think they should, that doesn't mean it can't stand on its own.
Again, it's not what I think they should see in it, but what the author himself was driving at.

Spice is the worm's gonads.

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Omphalos » 01 Nov 2012 11:32

SandRider wrote:this machine kills fascists ....


This machine surrounds hate and forces it to surrender

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Serkanner » 01 Nov 2012 13:55

Streaksy wrote:Why the hell are you taking so much time to point out that my way is somehow incorrect?


Because this is a discussion board, perhaps?
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby SandRider » 01 Nov 2012 15:00

also, he's a pedantic fascist ....
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lotek
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 02 Nov 2012 06:41

Well since you ask, I find myself rather shallow and pedantic.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Nekhrun » 02 Nov 2012 07:55

There's still a MySpace?
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Sandwurm88 » 02 Nov 2012 07:57

The moral of the story is that if you try to argue about the Dune Chronicles with Freakzilla, you will get your ass handed to you. Multiple times. With quotations tearing down your argument.

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby lotek » 02 Nov 2012 08:33

Nekhrun wrote:There's still a MySpace?


I hear Tom's still believes it anyway.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2012 08:36

I'm not arguing.

It is not the present which influences the future, thou fool, but the
future which forms the present. You have it all backward. Since the future is
set, an unfolding of events which will assure that future is fixed and
inevitable.

~CoD
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2012 08:44

Actually, I do see his point. I just don't think the latter books had the same affect on Dune for me that he described. For some reason, in my mind Dune has remained more self-contained.

And maybe, since I first read Dune at 13, it has remained more of an adventure story with a happy ending more than the series of downers Cpt. Aramsham has listed.
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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Naïve mind » 02 Nov 2012 11:50

Freakzilla wrote:
Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Incidentally, I think that's why he chooses this path, why he decides to lead the Fremen instead of trying to stop the jihad right away. It's so he can be with Chani.


After a long silence, Paul said: "The end adjusts the path behind it. Just
once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I
did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader."

~Children of Dune

:wink:


Even that may be a forty-year old rationalizing the decisions he made as a child.

Dune Messiah wrote:
"No mentat knows what I believe!" She took two deep, shuddering breaths. "How dare you judge us?"
"Judge you? I don't judge."
"You've no idea how we were taught!"
"Both of you were taught to govern," he said. "You were conditioned to an overweening thirst for power. You were imbued with a shrewd grasp of politics and a deep understanding for the uses of war and ritual. Natural law? What natural law? That myth haunts human history. Haunts! It's a ghost. It's insubstantial, unreal. Is your Jihad a natural law?"
"Mentat jabber," she sneered.
"I'm a servant of the Atreides and I speak with candor," he said.


I think Hayt's analysis is the one most shorn of flattery. While the Atreides (until Leto II, at least) are regularly seen doubting how they must rule, they rarely question why they must rule; they are raised to expect obedience; they are conditioned to take responsibility.

This may be the influence of the "old duke" that Jessica despises; the upbringing that makes it impossible for Leto Atreides to do what every one of us would do in his position; take his wife and son and run to Tupile, and let Arrakis sort itself out. It makes it impossible for Paul to seek employment as a guild navigator, retiring to obscurity between the stars, and throw away his father's signet ring. Or live out his life as any ordinary Fremen. The Atreides upbringing doesn't allow them to accept insignificance.

It may be that force and boyish pride, a desire for revenge, that causes the Jihad; blaming Chani sounds like rationalisation.

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Re: Jihadicus

Postby Freakzilla » 02 Nov 2012 13:53

Naïve mind wrote:Even that may be a forty-year old rationalizing the decisions he made as a child.


Well, that's what I am. :D
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