Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Did any of you see this? An account of a visit to the collection of Frank Herbert's papers at Fullerton, with samples of two pages from early notes for Dune:




(If the right edge of the images are cut off, click to see them in full.)

No, I hadn't seen this. Thanks for letting us know.

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:Did any of you see this? An account of a visit to the collection of Frank Herbert's papers at Fullerton, with samples of two pages from early notes for Dune:

No, but I am no less fascinated to see them now.

If you'll allow me to reply in here ... usenet is something I gave up a while ago, and I was never in alt.fan.dune

Gurney Halleck, on the other hand, here seems to have emerged almost fully formed from the start, with his baliset and all. However, there are some really strange notes about him later in the outline. Chapter 6: "Female complications w/Gurney. / Y'know the suppressants don't work on me!" Chapter 9: "trouble with men. / gurney and gal fnd tgthr. / just tlkg! jumped up... we were just tlkg! / gg have to send gurney back? / men ugly....suppressants have peculiar psych effect. / purity of womanhood....throwback to adolescence in mental attitude twd females." Apparently Herbert's initial concept included drugs being used to suppress sexual urges among the crew. While this particular theme was abandoned, drugs of course took on much greater importance as the novel developed.

As I presume you know, sexuality suppressants play a minor role in Destination Void as well; Herbert, for all his originality, had a penchant for recyling concepts over and over.

Also, and I may be mistaken, I see some shades of Duncan Idaho's virility in Gurney. Was Idaho conceived at this point? Was Gurney yet an unsightly bald scarred man? In the final version of Dune, of course, Duncan is the troublemaker, not Gurney, which is another hint at the characters having a shared origin.

I posted the link here hoping for replies, so please! I don't know whether any of the remaining alt.fan.dune crew read this forum and will see them, though.

I think you might be on to something that some of these ideas for Gurney made their way into Duncan. ("He's so good at watching the ladies.") The two characters serve very similar roles in the story and for House Atreides (swordmaster/warmaster, respectively, though I couldn't tell you the difference; they both train Paul in hand-to-hand combat, and they both have troops serving under them). I guess we won't know without a more exhaustive study of the various manuscripts.

I've personally been to the archives twice and spent hours going through the boxes. It's everything that note says it is. There are all kinds of things in those edits that didnt make it into the final books. Farok's arm is in box 23.

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:I think you might be on to something that some of these ideas for Gurney made their way into Duncan. ("He's so good at watching the ladies.") The two characters serve very similar roles in the story and for House Atreides (swordmaster/warmaster, respectively, though I couldn't tell you the difference; they both train Paul in hand-to-hand combat, and they both have troops serving under them). I guess we won't know without a more exhaustive study of the various manuscripts.

The other option that occurs to me is that we could judge the age of the characters from the degree to which their names sound like contemporary American names. I get the strong impression that Dune was originally intended to be set in a much nearer future, where planets ('Catalan') are named for regions of Earth, monopoly companies might still conceivably have a French name (compare the Union Minière du Haut Katanga, a famously ruthless mining company, well known in the 1950s and 60s), and people are very much Like Us in their beliefs and day-to-day lives.

In the later parts of the final novel, and in the later novels, 'contemporary' names disappear almost completely. This would date 'Duncan Idaho' to the early stages of the conception of the novel.

I agree that it seems like the book was originally meant to be set in a closer, more familiar future, but I don't think the names are a reliable guide to when a character was conceived.

For example, Linkam? Possibly a corruption of Lincoln, but not a "normal" modern name, I think. And Piter de Vries seems to be a late addition to the story, but just happens to have almost exactly the same name as a contemporary author. Besides, many of the characters were apparently renamed between drafts, anyway. I think the final mix is an example of the Aerith and Bob trope: a deliberate juxtaposition of familiar and exotic.

Flicking through 'Spice Planet' quickly, there doesn't seem to be a Duncan, but there's a character "William English" who serves some of the same role in the story (he's with Barri/Paul and Dorothy/Jessica when treachery leaves them for dead in the desert, for example). Unlike Duncan, he's a foreman of the spice harvesting crew, a veteran of Duneworld, and a former Hoskanner/Harkonnen servant. He has a scarred cheek from a work accident, spoiling his good looks (possibly a precursor to Gurney's inkvine scar, if we assume the detail comes from Frank's outline).

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:I think you might be on to something that some of these ideas for Gurney made their way into Duncan. ("He's so good at watching the ladies.") The two characters serve very similar roles in the story and for House Atreides (swordmaster/warmaster, respectively, though I couldn't tell you the difference; they both train Paul in hand-to-hand combat, and they both have troops serving under them).

They were both swordmasters/warmasters:

Paul nodded, glanced to the waiting Fremen around them -- the looks of
curious appraisal on the faces of the Fedaykin. He turned from the death
commandos back to Gurney. Finding his former swordmaster filled him with
elation. He saw it as a good omen, a sign that he was on the course of the
future where all was well.
With Gurney at my side . . .

...

"The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's
Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a
small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them
were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make
it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."
~Dune

You're right. So they apparently have exactly the same titles and positions within the Atreides court. And while there are some colorful differences in their personalities, they're mostly interchangeable for the purposes of the story. (For example, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that it was Gurney who came to Paul and Jessica's rescue in the desert and was killed by the Sardaukar, and Duncan who was reunited with them years later and tried to kill Jessica. The only thing that might have worked out differently given preceding events is that Duncan would probably have been more likely to join the Fremen than the smugglers after the fall of House Atreides.)

All the more reason to speculate that Duncan may have been created in part by splitting different ideas for Gurney into two separate characters, right?

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:You're right. So they apparently have exactly the same titles and positions within the Atreides court. And while there are some colorful differences in their personalities, they're mostly interchangeable for the purposes of the story. (For example, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that it was Gurney who came to Paul and Jessica's rescue in the desert and was killed by the Sardaukar, and Duncan who was reunited with them years later and tried to kill Jessica. The only thing that might have worked out differently given preceding events is that Duncan would probably have been more likely to join the Fremen than the smugglers after the fall of House Atreides.)

All the more reason to speculate that Duncan may have been created in part by splitting different ideas for Gurney into two separate characters, right?

Sure, I can see that. There was probably just too much for one person to do as the story developed and, like you said, a separate liason was needed for both Fremen and smugglers.

That could explain the relatively small roles of both characters in the first book as well.

It's no excuse to resurrect this, but I just dipped my toes into the published "Road to Dune" story, and I was surprised to see almost nothing of Frank's writing in it. What's the point of resurrecting an unpublished manuscript if you rewrite it entirely?

Naïve mind wrote:It's no excuse to resurrect this, but I just dipped my toes into the published "Road to Dune" story, and I was surprised to see almost nothing of Frank's writing in it. What's the point of resurrecting an unpublished manuscript if you rewrite it entirely?

What are you talking about? There's a bunch of chapters that were edited from Dune.

I found the letters back and forth with the publishers very interesting, too.

Never read the 'Spice Planet' crap.

Naïve mind wrote:It's no excuse to resurrect this, but I just dipped my toes into the published "Road to Dune" story, and I was surprised to see almost nothing of Frank's writing in it. What's the point of resurrecting an unpublished manuscript if you rewrite it entirely?

You mean "Spice Planet"? They're talking about having found "an outline (along with scene and character notes)" rather than a full manuscript, and I would assume the material they had to work from was similar to (or overlapped with) the samples posted at the top of the thread. If the choice was publishing the set of notes as-is (well, edited with commentary, Christopher Tolkien-style) or writing their own version of the story... well, you can't say they're not consistent, at least.

I'm not as hardcore against the two of them as some people here, so I read Spice Planet with interest. Agreed that the writing isn't up to FH's standards, though I think it's possible some of it is unpolished or just lower-quality FH; High-Opp is similarly not that well written, just as one might expect from an unreleased draft. However, the overall narrative does seem to stick pretty closely to what he had in mind at one point, except for the bit with Jesse in the spice cave, which is a bit WTF and I'm not convinced is authentic. I would much have preferred seeing Frank's notes, but failing that, I still think it gives an interesting glimpse at the creative process, even if you have to take everything in it with a dune of salt.

And all the other stuff, the deleted chapters and correspondence, is really fascinating, no matter how you feel about Brian and Kevin adapting FH's material.

Trouble with Spice Planet is that it's tainted by the hack. I can't believe that an "unedited" outline from Frank would need his greasy paws.
Why ?
Because nudune, that's why.

Cpt. Aramsham wrote:I'm not as hardcore against the two of them as some people here, so I read Spice Planet with interest. Agreed that the writing isn't up to FH's standards, though I think it's possible some of it is unpolished or just lower-quality FH; High-Opp is similarly not that well written, just as one might expect from an unreleased draft. However, the overall narrative does seem to stick pretty closely to what he had in mind at one point, except for the bit with Jesse in the spice cave, which is a bit WTF and I'm not convinced is authentic. I would much have preferred seeing Frank's notes, but failing that, I still think it gives an interesting glimpse at the creative process, even if you have to take everything in it with a dune of salt.

I am similarly not as passionate about their writing, but I maintain that dispassion by avoiding it. I was under the impression that "Spice Planet" was going to be a mostly FH story; Kevin J. Anderson's writing style, however, is very, very recognisable, and it was all over "Spice Planet".

The deleted chapters ameliorated my distaste somewhat. Even one of the collaboration stories, "A whisper of Caladan Seas", is quite pleasant, and I wonder if the copy received a lot more attention from Brian Herbert than the later novels.

All in all, it seams like the two of them decided that merely publishing FH's notes wasn't feasible, and included the other parts to add some bulk and diversity to the publication. Not a bad decision.

According to KJA, Road to Dune contains the only bits of Frank's notes that were worth being published. We happen to know better .

Rob

keep the Hate ALIVE, Rob ... KEEP THE HATE ALIVE !!!!

New archivist team, new Library catalog
(August 6, 2015 -- 46 pages)

• sources:
  • Special Collections Continue to Evolve
  • 'Dune' Message Is Timeless: Pollak Library Celebrates Tome's 50th Anniversary

Omphalos wrote:Farok's arm is in box 23.

What's in the box?
Pai... oh no it's an arm.

lotek wrote:

Omphalos wrote:Farok's arm is in box 23.

What's in the box?
Pai... oh no it's an arm.

He-he. I make myself giggle.

She was a great librarian. Every time I went there she went on her own and pulled more stuff out she thought I may want to see.

the new Archivist Patricia Prestinary also started end of last year to put resources such as Frank Herbert’s notes or articles (known or not so well known) on a 'Dune LibGuide' and mentioned she would continue to upgrade as far "as time allows" - in any cases, some interesting readings to be picked up there.

Frank Herbert's Dune - A guide for further study: Home
Supplementary material to our 2015 exhibit and programs
> http://libraryguides.fullerton.edu/HerbertDune" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

as Patrica told us : "The materials are available for use and research purposes, but not for distribution. We would prefer that you link to our pages." (emphasis are my own)

note: that is our colleague Leto who was in contact with her and who was provided with the information

ionah wrote:the new Archivist Patricia Prestinary also started end of last year to put resources such as Frank Herbert’s notes or articles (known or not so well known) on a 'Dune LibGuide' and mentioned she would continue to upgrade as far "as time allows" - in any cases, some interesting readings to be picked up there.

Frank Herbert's Dune - A guide for further study: Home
Supplementary material to our 2015 exhibit and programs
> http://libraryguides.fullerton.edu/HerbertDune" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

as Patrica told us : "The materials are available for use and research purposes, but not for distribution. We would prefer that you link to our pages." (emphasis are my own)

That page is awesome, man! Thank you for posting it! I hope that they digitize every little scrap of paper in that archive so that everyone has easy access.

Whoa! Indeed it is!