Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?


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Jodorowsky's Acolyte
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Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Jodorowsky's Acolyte »

Many Fremen warriors of the Jacurutu sietch: I seek your counsel in clearing up the matter of the Spice Melange for me.
I originally assumed that the Spice was the fecal matter of the Arrakian Worms, but after seeing the Harrison miniseries, I checked the glossary and appendices, and learned what the Spice is actually composed of (though it was a little vague).
PRE-SPICE MASS: The stage of fungusoid wild growth achieved when water is flooded into the excretions of Little Makers. At this stage, the spice of Arrakis forms a characteristic "blow," exchanging the material from deep underground for the matter on the surface above it. This mass, after exposure to sun and air, becomes melange. (509)
From that definition, the Spice sounds like it a combination from the dehydrated remains of exploded sandtrout bodies and water flooded sandtrout excretions. What Herbert means by "excretions," I'm guesing it could be sandtrout urine, but I'm too stupid to know for sure.

I checked the appendices again, the part on Pardot Kynes, in case it gave more information as to how it was created, or if the adult worms gave it something extra. This was all that it said:
Now they had the circular relationship: little maker to pre-spice mass; little maker to shai-hulud; shai-hulud to scatter the spice which fed microscopic creatures called sand plankton; the sand plankton, food for shai-hulud, growing, burrowing, becoming little makers. (481)
So the adult worms scatter it around, so maybe shreds of their dried out skin and their own defecations may add to the spice, except the appendices state that the only thing worms could defecate is sand.
sand of Arrakis was mostly a product of worm digestion
I guess that means that worms defecate sand instead of Spice-like waste, though it is possible that the worm defecates both. Interesting that the worms both eat and release sand, much like an earthworm's relationship to soil.

In the special edition DVD of FRANK HERBERT's DUNE directed by Harrison, there is a sepcial feature called "Willis McNelly on Frank Herbert and Dune," and his conclusion is not quite right, but interesting.
Where does the Spice come from? Have you worked it out into the book? Has anyone really worked it out? I tell you, I'll cut it short. The Spice is probably the spermadic material of Shai-hulud itself or himself, or "Father Eternity" as they call him. And so they're going to guard their eggs!


He probably didn't read the appendices of DUNE, or DUNE itself in quite a awhile, so I guess he missed the appendices and glossary which explained that spice was made up of dead sandtrout anyway, so the worms really don't need to protect the spice. If the worms were protecting the pre-Spice masses, where the sandtrout were still alive, then his statement would make more sense. It's still an interesting idea that Spice might be sandworm sperm.

Do you, my wise planetologists, understand specifically the creation of the Spice works? Are there any details on the Spice that I've missed?
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Freakzilla »

Image

That's lifted from sandchigger's site, BTW: http://www.hairyticksofdune.net/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by cmsahe »

thanks a lot for this graphic Freakzilla, it's gold!
Freakzilla wrote:Image

That's lifted from sandchigger's site, BTW: http://www.hairyticksofdune.net/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only the books written by Frank Herbert are canon.


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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Freakzilla »

Like I said, thank Sandchigger for that one.

That wasn't actually the one I was looking for, but I couldn't find it. :cry:
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Jodorowsky's Acolyte »

Thanks, Freak. The Fish Speakers will dance in your honor for posting this Spice chart. :D
Freakzilla wrote:Like I said, thank Sandchigger for that one.

That wasn't actually the one I was looking for, but I couldn't find it. :cry:
I thank Sandchigger most of all for coming up with this. He can recieve five of the most beautiful Fremen concubines, and 80,000 kilos in Spice. :D

By the way, what was the one you were looking for? Is it much more detailed, and is it on SandChigger's site or somewhere else? What is it?
Don't cry, Freak! You'll find it soon! It is written in the scrolls of destiny!
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Freakzilla »

Someone here posted, It was very similar but made use of the OH font.

Anyone, anyone? Fry? Fry?
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by SadisticCynic »

I could be wrong, but I have a strange feeling it was SandRider.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by SandRider »

I couldn't be bothered to make that much of an effort,
but I do dimly recall a thread somewhere around here that included
Chig's chart & the one Freak is thinking of, and I do think I had a part
in that thread ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by SandRider »

Search term used: spice cycle ignored: spice
that'll make it more difficult .....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Freakzilla »

I think I posted it at DN, too. If there's someone here who ISN'T banned (yeah, I know. Right?) you could look for it there.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by SandRider »

that'd be Nekhrun & Merkin's sockpuppets ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by SadisticCynic »

SandRider wrote:
Search term used: spice cycle ignored: spice
that'll make it more difficult .....
:lol: I ran into precisely the same problem yesterday.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Nekhrun »

Freakzilla wrote:I think I posted it at DN, too. If there's someone here who ISN'T banned (yeah, I know. Right?) you could look for it there.
Looks like it was deleted. I found a post where Master B was referring to it, but when I clicked the link I got a 404.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Jodorowsky's Acolyte »

Freakzilla wrote:Image

That's lifted from sandchigger's site, BTW: http://www.hairyticksofdune.net/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
According to the chart, sandplankton grow into sandtrout, and sandtrout become worms from forming cysts after surviving a spice blow. Interesting too that sandtrout are the result of the fission of dying sandworms. So if sandplankton grow into sandtrout, why do the sandworms eat them? If sandworms evolved from sandplankton, does that mean that sandplankton are the microrganism offspring of sandworms, or does it mean that sandworms don't reproduce, and that new sandworms are just created whenever the sandplankton undergo metamorphosis? I am confusing myself, and I bet others in the process. :? Two steps are missing in the cycle, I see: how else sandplankton and worms are related, and where sandplankton come from. It's probable that the sandplankton are the products of their own assexual fission, and then a majority gradually metamorphose into sandtrout. Are there any other ideas about the sandplankton?
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by inhuien »

The overusage of the word sandsandsand in your opening paragraph has just caused my noodle to discombobulate.

edited for carpet, poor fluffy carpet.
Last edited by inhuien on 13 Apr 2012 06:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by lotek »



Image
Spice is the worm's gonads.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Jodorowsky's Acolyte »

lotek wrote:

Image
Funny, man. The Appendices and the chart establish that the Spice is not wormshit, but I still love the poster you did.
inhuien wrote:The overusage of the word sandsandsand i your opening paragrarph has just caused my noodle to discombobulate.
What can I say? I like sand. Especially Arakian sand. Deal with it. (Upstart rascal)

By the way, your words "i" and "paragrarph" cause me to cry blood like a man who is bound and drinking Water of Life. :shock:

No, not really. I should talk, since I've gotten away with a lot of mispellings, when I should really edit my writings before I post them before.

Still, is there a biological relationship between the worms and the plankton I don't know about?
'...all those who took part in the rise and fall of the Dune project learned how to fall one and one thousand times with savage obstinacy until learning how to stand. I remember my old father who, while dying happy, said to me: "My son, in my life, I triumphed because I learned how to fail."' -Alejandro Jodorowsky
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by inhuien »

Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:
lotek wrote:

Image
Funny, man. The Appendices and the chart establish that the Spice is not wormshit, but I still love the poster you did.
inhuien wrote:The overusage of the word sandsandsand i your opening paragrarph has just caused my noodle to discombobulate.
What can I say? I like sand. Especially Arakian sand. Deal with it. (Upstart rascal)

By the way, your words "i" and "paragrarph" cause me to cry blood like a man who is bound and drinking Water of Life. :shock:

No, not really. I should talk, since I've gotten away with a lot of mispellings, when I should really edit my writings before I post them before.

Still, is there a biological relationship between the worms and the plankton I don't know about?
Tears of blood are bod, I'll edit the past in question. Your carpet, however, shall carry my shame forever.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by lotek »

Red carpet !
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmWYbENG ... re=related[/youtube]

(sorry for poor quality)
Image
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Re: Melange

Post by Kralizec »

Paying attention to the details of such matters seems worthwhile, as the proper basis for making an interpretation. However, the interpretation seems to be a thing on another level from the details themselves.

Consider that "melange," an alternative name for "the spice," means "mixture," both in French and as it is used in English. And now consider the description of the causes of melange: Water, which the sandtrout ordinarily attempt to sequester, comes to be mixed with some excretion of the sandtrout called "pre-spice mass." When explosive force brings the mixture of pre-spice mass and water to the surface, it is exposed to air and sunlight and becomes "the spice," "melange." In a broad and very ancient manner of speaking, melange is a melange of earth, water, air, and fire, or all material things. So we have an account of the spice as a melange or mixture of all material things, participating as either components or causes of the motion of the components.

But melange is also "the spice." If we can trust the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), "spice" dates from "early 13c., from O.Fr. espice, from L.L. species (pl.) "spices, goods, wares," from L. "kind, sort" (see species)." "Species" dates from the "1550s, a classification in logic, from L. species "kind, sort," originally "appearance, sight, a seeing," related to specere "to look at, to see, behold," from PIE *spek- (see scope (1))." And the connections between the spice, on one hand, and eyes and visions, on the other hand, in the Dune series is well known. So we have indications that "the spice" is perhaps all appearances, including all perceptible kinds.

What I want to suggest is something along this line: The spice or melange is all one's awareness of all the things of the world, or all experience.

Now consider that in moderate doses, the spice extends life. The result of coming in contact with the essence depends on one's susceptibilities. It may kill you, or you may get through the crisis and transform what you have received into something life-giving rather than deadly. What you share with others is different from what you took in. Thus, you become a maker. You may become "Bene Gesserit," a well-behaved participant in maintaining and extending what someone founded long ago. Or you may become a visionary or otherwise adept founder. Like Paul and Leto II, you are not "bene gesserit," not well behaved, even if you seem to be, like Odrade or Sheeana, or like Siona, the seemingly well-behaved Fish Speaker commander. Or should I say that you do behave well, even though the Bene Gesserit do not think so? You make everything new.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by lotek »

I had never considered the alchemist point of view on spice, but I like the idea.
I'm half French and the word "mélange"/"mixture" (which is also another synonym in French btw) always nagged at my unconscious reading.

Then again the hint was no too subtle, but there are so many.

Thanks for reminding me of Occam's razor.
So we have indications that "the spice" is perhaps all appearances, including all perceptible kinds
I take it you're referring to the taste, always different for everyone.
There is also Odrade mentionning that the morning melange is always an uncomfortable experience irrc. but I disagree with part of what ou say after.
The concept of spice extending life, but the killing exposure is not to the spice but the Water of Life, "refined" spice.
All BG RMs, and the pre-born Atreides, have the capacity to transform the poison to reach their inner lives.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Kralizec »

Your mention of the varying taste of the spice and the range of bodily feelings experienced by Odrade fit my meaning well. I hadn't thought at all of Odrade's differing experience of the spice, so I'm grateful for your mention of that point. In general, I mean to associate the word "spice" with "species" and all the cognate words relating to appearances and kinds, but including all perceptual and intellectual things.

Your mention of alchemy is interesting. However, rather than say that Frank Herbert had an alchemical meaning for the spice, I'm more inclined to suppose that both Herbert and the alchemists were using metaphor or allegory to write of things about which they chose not to speak freely and openly.

Regarding the deadliness of the concentrated or untransformed spice to some, and the power of others to be transformed by it and to transform it, I had in mind the role of philosophy in our lives. The reading of ancient things and the experience of contemporary things kill or at least "deaden" some sensitive thinkers, while other thinkers are transformed by it into philosophers and philosopher-poets or founders.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by gurensan »

Sand plankton can't turn into sandtrout. There won't be more than one vector leading to another - the worm fissions into sandtrout, the sandtrout sequester and do some funky stuff with water, combine it with their own poo, probably, and a big trout toilet gets big enough to call it a pre-spice mass. Where there's water, the sandtrout will go and make an underground ball o' poo water, which ferments, because there's not enough sand plankton to eat it all. It ferments, and blows.

When a sandtrout gets old, it'll harden and form a cyst in the desert, and become a teeny bebe maker. Which eats sand plankton.

Which comes full circle - the worms eat the sand plankton, the sand plankton feed on pre-spice, the trout will also eat sand plankton, hence the worm will defend spice sands because they have a desire to eat - they'll defend their feeding grounds. The worm won't eat a ball o' sand trout, hence Leto II making it to teenagerhood.

I don't agree with the idea that sand plankton being a worm vector like a trout is. That's like saying krill are whales.

That's the way I always took it, anyway. Kinda doubt I added much to the conversation.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by Freakzilla »

gurensan wrote:Kinda doubt I added much to the conversation.
That doesn't stop anyone else here.
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Re: Melange: Dehydrated Exploded Sandtrout, or Worm Waste?

Post by gurensan »

Freakzilla wrote:
gurensan wrote:Kinda doubt I added much to the conversation.
That doesn't stop anyone else here.
If you fart in the wilderness, and a bear eats you before you can smell it, does it matter if it makes an odor?
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