The God Emperor's taste in music

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The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 29 Nov 2011 11:57

God Emperor of Dune said:
[...] Once, after the death of a particularly superb Duncan, he had toured great musical performances preserved in his memories. Mozart had tired him quickly. Pretentious! But Bach ... ahhh, Bach.
Leto remembered the joy of it.
I sat at the organ and let the music drench me.
Only three times in all memory had there been an equal to Bach. But even Licallo was not better; as good, but not better.

I've listened to classical music on a daily basis for over ten years. Johan Sebastian Bach's music is fucking amazing. I particularly enjoy his suites for cello and his partitas and sonatas for violin. Playing them on my cd player when I wake up, in the bathroom while I shit, shower and shave, and in my car when stuck in traffic, has become the key ingredient of my 'getting ready for the day' ritual.

From time to time I mix it up with Beethoven's string quartets and some pieces by Mozart like his "Serenade for Winds", but after a few weeks I find myself returning to J.S. Bach. Beethoven is more passionate, Mozart's compositions show more complexity, but Bach has something different; a serenity that resembles the 'pulse of eternity'. Perhaps that's why Leto preferred him over Mozart.

Thoughts?
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby SadisticCynic » 29 Nov 2011 12:22

Couldn't say. The only classical record I have is Gustav Holst's 'Planets'.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Nov 2011 12:24

I think it was probably just FH's personal favorite.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby lotek » 29 Nov 2011 12:31

Nietzsche's mustache wrote:Playing them on my cd player when I wake up, in the bathroom while I shit, shower and shave, and in my car when stuck in traffic, has become the key ingredient of my 'getting ready for the day' ritual.

(...)

Thoughts?



I think you shouldn't shower with your cd player, it's unhealthy and unethical, possibly illegal in some states.

Apart from that, I'm not familiar enough with the structure of Bach's music to know if there could be a reason why Leto II would prefer him over Beethoven, so in the mean time I'll go with Freak and say this is the author directly speaking, not his character.
Last edited by lotek on 29 Nov 2011 12:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Nov 2011 12:36

IIRC, Leto gave some reasons for not liking other composers but not for why he liked Bach.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby SandChigger » 29 Nov 2011 13:09

"Ah, Bach..." ;)

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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby lotek » 29 Nov 2011 14:57

"Ach, Bach..."
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Serkanner » 29 Nov 2011 15:00

SandChigger wrote:"Ah, Bach..." ;)


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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 29 Nov 2011 18:57

One of my favorites:

Freakzilla wrote:I think it was probably just FH's personal favorite.

You're probably right. I tend to reach for in-universe explanations even when there isn't much evidence to support my speculations. Admittedly, more often than not they crash and burn, but sometimes one gets lucky and something beautiful comes out of what had begun as baseless speculation.
Freakzilla wrote:IIRC, Leto gave some reasons for not liking other composers but not for why he liked Bach.

Yep, he calls Mozart pretentious, but never really explains why he loves Bach. This reminds me of a scene in the movie Amadeus ( great movie ) where the emperor and his lackeys tell Mozart that one of his operas contains "too many notes". His response always cracks me up.
lotek wrote:
Nietzsche's mustache wrote:Playing them on my cd player when I wake up, in the bathroom while I shit, shower and shave, and in my car when stuck in traffic, has become the key ingredient of my 'getting ready for the day' ritual.

(...)

Thoughts?



I think you shouldn't shower with your cd player, it's unhealthy and unethical, possibly illegal in some states.

Apart from that, I'm not familiar enough with the structure of Bach's music to know if there could be a reason why Leto II would prefer him over Beethoven, so in the mean time I'll go with Freak and say this is the author directly speaking, not his character.

Nothing like a hot shower while blasting some classical music through one's speakers. :music-rockon:

As to the structure of Bach's compositions, Bach was a master of the fugal technique:
Most fugues open with a short main theme, the subject,[8] which then sounds successively in each voice (after the first voice is finished stating the subject, a second voice repeats the subject at a different pitch, and other voices repeat in the same way); when each voice has entered, the exposition is complete. This is often followed by a connecting passage, or episode, developed from previously heard material; further "entries" of the subject then are heard in related keys. Episodes (if applicable) and entries are usually alternated until the "final entry" of the subject, by which point the music has returned to the opening key, or tonic, which is often followed by closing material, the coda.[3][9] In this sense, a fugue is a style of composition, rather than a fixed structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugue

Would it be far fetched to say that Leto has a 'fugal understanding' of existence?
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Freakzilla » 29 Nov 2011 19:09

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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Dravition » 29 Nov 2011 20:11

Great idea for a thread, N's Mustache.

The contrast between the best classical music and contemporary musical forms is similar to that between FH's Dune saga and much of the crap you find in popular literature today. It's the difference between analog vs digital -- between a dynamic flow vs discrete pieces thrown together in a formulaic way -- between experiencing life as an ongoing journey of constant change vs a sequence of fragmented events held loosely together.

Thomas Beecham said, "the function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought." When I listen to classical music, it stills my mind, reaches deep within my wordless self, and evokes a range of emotions I sometimes forget I possess.. emotions common across the human experience, transcending time and space. It humbles me and makes me feel.. connected.

I've included some links of my current favourites, and I hope you'll post some links for your fav Bach.

---------------------------------

I've always been a fan of Chopin. Here are some links for anyone interested. click on the links with the :!: icon for the vids featuring Valentina Igoshina (babe ;) )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZUw78FXpG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa0Z6g1XJkU :!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MzrAGZHDvo :!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OjQbKanHN4

For a dubstep vision of chopin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Q1uT-c ... re=related

A few other gems that come to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ja-c1fsZd0 :clap:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QB7ugJn ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A08sym9r ... re=related
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 30 Nov 2011 02:34

Dravition wrote:Great idea for a thread, N's Mustache.

The contrast between the best classical music and contemporary musical forms is similar to that between FH's Dune saga and much of the crap you find in popular literature today. It's the difference between analog vs digital -- between a dynamic flow vs discrete pieces thrown together in a formulaic way -- between experiencing life as an ongoing journey of constant change vs a sequence of fragmented events held loosely together.

Thomas Beecham said, "the function of music is to release us from the tyranny of conscious thought." When I listen to classical music, it stills my mind, reaches deep within my wordless self, and evokes a range of emotions I sometimes forget I possess.. emotions common across the human experience, transcending time and space. It humbles me and makes me feel.. connected.

Beautifully put. :D

Thank you Dravition, it pleases me greatly to find someone as enthused with classical music as myself. I feel the same way in regards to the quality of contemporary pop music when compared with the great composers of old. Who will remember Ricky Martin in 100 years ? "Living la vida loca" (his most popular song) is already a distant memory, but I bet that during the next century people will still talk about Beethoven's "Ode to Joy".

I have all of Frederic Chopin's Nocturnes and Preludes in a double CD. His stuff is melancholically exquisite. My favorite one is Nocturne on E flat major, Op. 9 No. 2
(first of your links). Puccini, Rachmaninoff and Liszt are also part of my musical 'rotation', but Bach and Beethoven usually push them back in playing order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OFHXmiZP38
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZtBwlxL0Aw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=nZJ1Tgf4JL8 ( "Ode to Joy" with an introduction by conductor Leonard Bernstein, it's divided in three parts. The sound quality is a bit shitty but Bernstein's intro is well worth it.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwoBAmChPj0 ( transcription from cello to french horn )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulMpKxednQc ( cello )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mYVT6CeAec ( Nathan Milstein is a rockstar! ) :violin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHG1AS_-blQ ( Pablo Casals )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA2r6sxzaVw ( this piece is actually close to 13 minutes long, but here they only show the last 3. If you liked it look for Milstein's complete version )

Frank Herbert must've really liked J.S.Bach; him being his choice for Leto's favorite composer says as much. Still, I think he was a bit harsh on Mozart. :snooty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGSzeHKg ... re=related ( Scene from Amadeus with Sallieri describing Mozart's "Serenade for Winds" )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7jEpsgpPLQ ( Serenade for Winds )
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 30 Nov 2011 02:59

Freakzilla wrote:

:clap:
Niiiiiice! That dude can play!

Here's the same one but with violin:
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
-Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Nov 2011 03:57

Just one comment about the modern music - I'd specify modern popular music. There are many groups and people still pushing boundries and creating things far outside what people think of average modern music.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 30 Nov 2011 05:28

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Just one comment about the modern music - I'd specify modern popular music. There are many groups and people still pushing boundries and creating things far outside what people think of average modern music.

I still enjoy some of the (relatively) modern stuff like Bob Dylan (saw him in concert: Boston back in '97-'98), The Beatles, Hendrix, Pink Floyd and The Doors. I grew up with Nirvana and Radiohead and still listen to their records from time to time, but it's hard to imagine the God Emperor listening to music with a lifespan of mere decades (at best). All the bands/musicians that I've listed are considered 'popular', yet I find them superior to the drivel that dominates the airwaves nowadays (JLO, Boy bands, etc.)

Some hip-hop artists are very talented (Mos Def, MF Doom) but where I live (Puerto Rico) what we have instead of hip-hop is Reggaeton. I can't stand that crap. It's supposed to be a fusion between rap and reggae, and all it is is Caribbean gangsta music. I like Bob Marley, but that shit does not even come close to resembling reggae.

Classical music is my sietch in an island where up and coming rock bands are killed in utero. :cry:
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Nov 2011 09:16

Nietzsche's mustache wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:

:clap:
Niiiiiice! That dude can play!

Here's the same one but with violin:


Yeah, but it was WRITTEN for the violin. :wink:
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby SadisticCynic » 30 Nov 2011 12:45

If I'm not mistaken, classical music focuses strongly on melody, whereas much modern music is more expressly interested in rhythm.

The whole point of extreme genres, like metal for instance, is that they focus almost entirely on rhythm. The use of harsh vocals is an extension of this.

Unfortunately, writing a simple, catchy rhythm is much easier than a complex melody, (or even a good rhythm-focused song) which seems to explain why most popular music is trash.

At least that is my current theory. :)

One other possible (and potentially weak) point is that, there must surely have been some trash classical music back when it was more popular. Thus, only the best has survived into popular knowledge today i.e. many who don't listen to classical will know the names Bach, Beethoven, Mozart & etc.

Finally, for entertainment purposes:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN3gSjHsr1o&feature=related[/youtube]

(I couldn't find the full quote where Burns says: "I now declare all other music, obsolete.") :lol:
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 30 Nov 2011 16:58

Good points.
SadisticCynic wrote:If I'm not mistaken, classical music focuses strongly on melody, whereas much modern music is more expressly interested in rhythm.
The whole point of extreme genres, like metal for instance, is that they focus almost entirely on rhythm. The use of harsh vocals is an extension of this.
Unfortunately, writing a simple, catchy rhythm is much easier than a complex melody, (or even a good rhythm-focused song) which seems to explain why most popular music is trash.

I guess most people prefer music with 'attitude' (dependent on rhythm) rather than music with 'soul' (dependent on melody). I have no formal training in music so if this statement sounds absurd I apologize.
SadisticCynic wrote:One other possible (and potentially weak) point is that, there must surely have been some trash classical music back when it was more popular. Thus, only the best has survived into popular knowledge today i.e. many who don't listen to classical will know the names Bach, Beethoven, Mozart & etc.

Kinda like musical Darwinism?
SadisticCynic wrote:Finally, for entertainment purposes:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN3gSjHsr1o&feature=related[/youtube]

(I couldn't find the full quote where Burns says: "I now declare all other music, obsolete.") :lol:

:lol:
Nelson's interpretation of Beethoven's fifth symphony.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby georgiedenbro » 11 Sep 2014 10:35

I can say a thing or two about this as a classically trained musician (singer and pianist).

SadisticCynic wrote:If I'm not mistaken, classical music focuses strongly on melody, whereas much modern music is more expressly interested in rhythm.
The whole point of extreme genres, like metal for instance, is that they focus almost entirely on rhythm. The use of harsh vocals is an extension of this.
Unfortunately, writing a simple, catchy rhythm is much easier than a complex melody, (or even a good rhythm-focused song) which seems to explain why most popular music is trash.


Classical music focuses on everything. Modern music, aka pop/rock, is today's equivalent of what folk music was a few hundred years ago; it isn't the updated version of what was basically aristocratic music in the past (i.e. classical music). We've still got aristocratic music, it's just for music snobs instead of rich people. There are many kinds of metal right now (especially now), and much of it focuses on being loud, much of it on being very melodic, and some of it is neoclassical or progressive. The main thing in common among various metal is the driving forward-momentum of the tempo, and the aggressive or expressionistic performance by the musicians, often involving show-boating. What makes pop music sell is that the songs feature very little variation within each song, featuring a basic verse, chorus and one 'hook' designed to stick in memory and be memorable (not good or bad, just that you remember it). Pop music is the aural equivalent of slogans or advertisements; their primary and sole material goal is to stick in your head, and actually selling it beyond that is a matter of hype and crowd control.

As for Leto II's taste in music, I giggled the first time I read GeoD, because I've long loved the music of Bach and hated that of Mozart (with a few exceptions). I fully agree that Mozart's music is pretentious; I'd even call it lame and 'mostly junk', although in music circles and universities I am a heathen to say so. It's important to remember that Mozart died at age 35, so we never got to hear what he'd have written had he matured and calmed down a little. Maybe the Requiem is an example of what was to come. One big difference between Bach and Mozart was that Bach wrote all of his music for a religious setting, to be played in churches, and perhaps he even wrote it with religious thoughts in mind. Mozart's music is, by contrast, 'about nothing,' just an exercise in technique.

A bit about fugues: The fugue is a music form involving the use of a theme (i.e. tune) that then becomes the fixated focus for the piece. The tune will be repeated in other registers, played with inversions (up-side down), played at times more quickly or slowly than you're used to hearing it, and it can be altered in other ways. Then there are 'counter-themes' that play at the same time, both contrasting with and also accentuating the different versions and evolution of the main theme over time. Ring any bells? This type of layered, multi-themed approach seems to bear resemblance to Frank's way of structuring Dune. Now remember this passage:

Dune Messiah wrote:The familiar melange fugue state began creeping into her awareness. She took
a deep breath, experienced a brittle form of calm, poised and selfless.


This sounds like an inside-joke pun to me. Medically a fugue state is "a rare psychiatric disorder characterized by reversible amnesia for personal identity, including the memories, personality, and other identifying characteristics of individuality." (Wiki) In other words, forgetting who you are. While this no doubt can happen during confusing spice (drug) overdoses, notice also the reference to the musical fugue here, as a prescient entering a 'fugue state' can be thought of as considering many layered levels of meaning and reality, all intertwining and being juxtaposed through time, changed, and yet the same.

Maybe Frank is making an analogy between having a prescient experience and listening to a fugue? I imagine he may have listened to some Bach while tripping, which would produce results I admit I haven't explored...
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Naïve mind » 13 Sep 2014 16:54

georgiedenbro wrote:Classical music focuses on everything.


+1 for that. It's strange that we've had 500 years (musical notation gets sketchy at that point) of really free experimentation, only for popular music to settle on snack-sized three minute 'songs' in the twentieth century, that all follow the same basic pattern. We don't hear it because we're attuned to hearing the differences, but to music listeners from the future, most of what's made today will sound very, very similar.

With today's technology, you'd expect more variety in the mainstream, not less.

georgiedenbro wrote: Modern music, aka pop/rock, is today's equivalent of what folk music was a few hundred years ago; it isn't the updated version of what was basically aristocratic music in the past (i.e. classical music). We've still got aristocratic music, it's just for music snobs instead of rich people.


Aargh, you're probably more knowledgeable about music than me, but this paragraph perpetuates so many negative stereotypes about classical music. Almost everything written before 1850 or so is considered 'classical music'. Some music that's written today is considered classical music. Renaissance dances are considered classical, and they certainly weren't (just) enjoyed by the aristocrats. Bizet or Verdi's operas were the Hollywood blockbusters of their time. They were so popular that to this day, a stadium full of soccer fans can sing along to the themes. Beethoven may have composed for the Austrian aristocracy, but he actually made a pretty penny from the sales of sheet music to musicians and middle-class households.

It's five hundred years of music. Saying it's only for snobs and aristocrats makes fifty times less sense than saying that all music from the seventies is for hippies, or that eighties music is for yuppies only.

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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Sep 2014 17:09

I think it has a lot to do with radio for the last half of the last century and the internet nowadays. Back then, your only option was live, acoustic music and only classically trained musicians got the venues to perform.
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Mr. Melange » 13 Sep 2014 18:12

Nietzsche's mustache wrote:As to the structure of Bach's compositions, Bach was a master of the fugal technique:
Most fugues open with a short main theme, the subject,[8] which then sounds successively in each voice (after the first voice is finished stating the subject, a second voice repeats the subject at a different pitch, and other voices repeat in the same way); when each voice has entered, the exposition is complete. This is often followed by a connecting passage, or episode, developed from previously heard material; further "entries" of the subject then are heard in related keys. Episodes (if applicable) and entries are usually alternated until the "final entry" of the subject, by which point the music has returned to the opening key, or tonic, which is often followed by closing material, the coda.[3][9] In this sense, a fugue is a style of composition, rather than a fixed structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugue

I didn't read the rest of the thread as a forwarning; I read this and got all excited as you guys have already noticed I can get.

I can not remember what the book was called, but I read a biography about Frank Herbert almost 2 years ago. I checked it out from my schools library so I'll see if its still there Monday, but one point the book made was that the Dune series in a lot of ways is like a fugue. This meaning that there is a central theme persisting through the books, originated with the first book, and that same theme is added to or flipped without changing the dominating theme.

For example, the first Dune was a very open and complex and was a "hero" story. Dune Messiah on the other hand was mostly confined to Paul's story, and also brought down the hero Dune spent so long to build up. This differs from a normal book series where they usually are just continuation of stories. Dune actually changes its angle every book.

Again, I am going to find this biography and get back to you guys on this, but I can assure you, Frank was quite the Bach fan.
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Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby georgiedenbro » 14 Sep 2014 02:30

Naïve mind wrote:Aargh, you're probably more knowledgeable about music than me, but this paragraph perpetuates so many negative stereotypes about classical music. Almost everything written before 1850 or so is considered 'classical music'. Some music that's written today is considered classical music. Renaissance dances are considered classical, and they certainly weren't (just) enjoyed by the aristocrats. Bizet or Verdi's operas were the Hollywood blockbusters of their time. They were so popular that to this day, a stadium full of soccer fans can sing along to the themes. Beethoven may have composed for the Austrian aristocracy, but he actually made a pretty penny from the sales of sheet music to musicians and middle-class households.

It's five hundred years of music. Saying it's only for snobs and aristocrats makes fifty times less sense than saying that all music from the seventies is for hippies, or that eighties music is for yuppies only.


I can be a bit more specific, since I recognize your concern. Until the mid-1800's the music was really only for aristocrats, especially in Germany and France. In Italy it was a bit more mixed, but in Italy the great common popularity came with Romantic era opera, where it has remained to this day. Bizet, in France, was one of the first French composers who wrote for the general public, and that, too, was opera. Chamber music and other instrumental forms weren't so much 'peasant music' in this sense. However the era of new classical music being popular among the people was to be short lived, as by the late 1800's and early 1900's composers (especially in universities) became fatigued with 'nice music' and took compositional theory to the limits and 'classical music' became more and more artsy, esoteric, and written for and by cliques of music afficionados.

So yes, in current times we listen to the music of Mozart and Beethoven, relics of the past, but the current music of that sort written, i.e. modern 'classical music', is rarely ever heard by the general public. So I was referring to the modern composers, who are not writing for the masses. The closest thing to that would be film composers, which is something I will blatantly concede. But my point was the rock/pop is the equivalent of old folk music, and I don't mean this to be dismissive of folk music. Some folk music that local people sang and performed in 1600 was exciting and even complicated to write. But as Freak pointed out, there was a big difference back then between what local people could enjoy - which was what they could sing and perform themselves - versus what rich people who owned orchestras could commission and listen to. It did all become less clear-cut by the mid-1800's.

The fugal form, which we're discussing, more or less died with J.S. Bach in 1750, and never came into vogue again. Mozart and other composers wrote a few fugues here and there as exercises, Shostakovitch famously wrote an ode to Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier in the form of his own set of 24 preludes and fugues (a masterpiece), but other than a few anomalies not too many people write or listen to fugues. Taste, even in 1750, was verging towards music that was more simply organized and easier to listen to, and with less demands on the ears. One might argue that classical music, in this sense, was beginning to align with folk music in intention, i.e. being easily accessible, but at a certain point composers seemed to rebel against this and effectively drove classical music so far away from public tastes that it would never return again. The radio took over then, and the rest is history.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

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Naïve mind
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Naïve mind » 14 Sep 2014 02:49

Freakzilla wrote:I think it has a lot to do with radio for the last half of the last century and the internet nowadays. Back then, your only option was live, acoustic music and only classically trained musicians got the venues to perform.


You're assuming that the musicians who played classical music back then were 'classically trained'--I don't think the distinction was all that great, if there was a distinction at all. Of course, if you can't read notes and play everything by ear, there's a limit to the kind of music you'll be able to perform.

But making music was a much more common pastime a hundred years ago. People fiddled, sang, were in marching bands and little home orchestras. When they paid to listen to people making music, they expected a bit more than a seventeen year old strumming a few easy chords on a guitar.

But back to the God Emperor, Bach's music is very mathematical. Most other music, when read from a sheet, doesn't have the kind of symmetry or clever repetition you can find in Bach.

Some people ascribe transcendant qualities to mathematics--they call it God's language, argue about whether it is something we humans invented or discovered. You could say the same about Bach—who was very religious—that his music is not his creation, but something more like a mathematical phenomenon he discovered and recorded for posterity.

To me, Bach's music often sounds sterile and unemotional. Which may be the attraction if you're a four-thousand year old worm who is tired of human emotion.

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Mr. Melange
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Re: The God Emperor's taste in music

Postby Mr. Melange » 14 Sep 2014 06:46

Aw youre gonna hurt Leto's little worm feelings!
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse


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