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    Re: Chapter 04

    Postby Enno » 14 Feb 2011 16:56

    Its revealed in this chapter that fremen stillsuits stink to high heaven in any enclosed space. I should think they would but wouldnt such a stink be an indicator of sanitary issues or suit security? Excrement aside. Normal body odor is a side effect of bacteria and in a stillsuit if left alone long enough to stink should seriously compromise the potability of the reclamed moisture.
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    Re: Chapter 04

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Feb 2011 02:14

    Enno wrote:Its revealed in this chapter that fremen stillsuits stink to high heaven in any enclosed space. I should think they would but wouldnt such a stink be an indicator of sanitary issues or suit security? Excrement aside. Normal body odor is a side effect of bacteria and in a stillsuit if left alone long enough to stink should seriously compromise the potability of the reclamed moisture.


    We'll say they had REALLY good filtration, to the point of sterile filtration (can't remember what size that is right now, 0.5 micron?). How likely that is... who knows? Not impossible probably, though it would require some serious pumping force I believe.
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    Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Streaksy » 25 Nov 2011 06:23

    I remember thinking when I was basically a kid that stillsuits don't make sense. Lots of energy going in, none going out.

    Muscle movement => Heat
    Sun => Heat
    Enclosed system = Almost all heat stays in, and its only being added to

    I remember that the sweat "having cooled the body" passes in to the filter. Well, sweat works by evaporation below boiling point. The air current sends water molocules airborne which forces them to take thermal energy with them. But if the water were to drip away or pass through a filter then the only heat being taken away would be what was in the sweat, which really isn't much at all. It's even less efficient at transfering heat outward than bleeding in to a bandage! And since you're drinking the water again, whateve heat left with the water is being absorbed, probably with even more heat. If the whole system is enclosed, where's the heat possibly going?

    Was there any mention of a dedicated heat dispersion system? Cos the sweat thing is silly. :P Heat dispersion either requires an agent to carry it away (precious moisture so not a chance) or the direct conversion of it in to another energy to be radiated away.

    I know the Fremen travel at night, but they do get out in the sun aswell. And remember they wear the same garment for both cases. A simple premise like stillsuits can't compensate for both temperature extremes. It's basically a coverall that stores your sweat and other excretions. Heat management isn't a part of it. You'd boil. ;/

    It's not a huge deal. But I'd like to stand corrected. ;D
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby SandChigger » 25 Nov 2011 09:07

    (Have you seen that Science of Dune book from a couple or three years ago? It had an article on stillsuits, but I don't remember any of the particulars and don't have my copy handy at the moment....)
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 25 Nov 2011 17:04

    The sun thing is taken care of by the cloak, just like people who live in the desert here cover themselves nearly completely with something loose and light.

    That said, the actual stillsuits themselves are almost certainly not obeying laws of physics, without a heatsink of some kind I'm pretty sure they'd not work.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Serkanner » 26 Nov 2011 19:02

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The sun thing is taken care of by the cloak, just like people who live in the desert here cover themselves nearly completely with something loose and light.

    That said, the actual stillsuits themselves are almost certainly not obeying laws of physics, without a heatsink of some kind I'm pretty sure they'd not work.


    The fabric of the suit is the heatsink.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 27 Nov 2011 03:15

    Serkanner wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The sun thing is taken care of by the cloak, just like people who live in the desert here cover themselves nearly completely with something loose and light.

    That said, the actual stillsuits themselves are almost certainly not obeying laws of physics, without a heatsink of some kind I'm pretty sure they'd not work.


    The fabric of the suit is the heatsink.


    :lol: ... what? Sorry man, I can't tell if that's a joke or if you remember a passage about that fabric being made from a superconducter that I don't recall...
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Serkanner » 27 Nov 2011 08:19

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Serkanner wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:The sun thing is taken care of by the cloak, just like people who live in the desert here cover themselves nearly completely with something loose and light.

    That said, the actual stillsuits themselves are almost certainly not obeying laws of physics, without a heatsink of some kind I'm pretty sure they'd not work.


    The fabric of the suit is the heatsink.


    :lol: ... what? Sorry man, I can't tell if that's a joke or if you remember a passage about that fabric being made from a superconducter that I don't recall...


    It is neither. I forgot to put a question mark at the end of the sentence.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Rymoah » 11 Dec 2011 06:33

    Streaksy's doubts are on the same line of those proposed by the author of the stillsuit article on "Science of Dune" quoted by Sandchigger. You can read almost all the article on googlebooks (pp. 127-141).

    From what I read, three are the main critics made to Herbert's design of stillsuit:

    - Cooling mechanism (as Streaksy said, it is described the perspiration mechanism, but since the molecules pass through the inner layer of the suit, they can't take away much heat from the skin, so it would only dry the skin).

    - Condensation of sweat in liquid water is not addressed in Kynes' description of the stillsuit.

    - The "powered-by-human-movement" thing wouldn't provide enough energy to the stillsuit. Ironically, in the last years some studies have been made in producing electricity from heel strikes, but they require some kind of controlled walking, something that would surely attract sandworms. :P

    These are the first lines from the conclusion of the article:

    Stillsuits designed using strict literal interpretations from the Dune books would not work and most likely would cook the wearer like a crock-pot. However, engineering solutions can be envisioned for all the suit's shortcomings -- it's just a matter of when the techonology will be available and if the end product would look anything like a stillsuit.


    (A little off-topic: why is the author of the article convinced that the stories in the Dune books are set 13000 years in the future? If I remember correctly, it should be more or less 21000 years -- 110 centuries before the Butlerian Jihad + ~10000 years after the Jihad)

    Hope that helps. ;)

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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby SandChigger » 11 Dec 2011 08:23

    Rymoah wrote:(A little off-topic: why is the author of the article convinced that the stories in the Dune books are set 13000 years in the future? If I remember correctly, it should be more or less 21000 years -- 110 centuries before the Butlerian Jihad + ~10000 years after the Jihad)

    A lot of people don't read the books or, more importantly, the appendices as closely as we do. ;)
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Rymoah » 11 Dec 2011 09:15

    SandChigger wrote:
    Rymoah wrote:(A little off-topic: why is the author of the article convinced that the stories in the Dune books are set 13000 years in the future? If I remember correctly, it should be more or less 21000 years -- 110 centuries before the Butlerian Jihad + ~10000 years after the Jihad)

    A lot of people don't read the books or, more importantly, the appendices as closely as we do. ;)


    That's sure :) What I've always thought is that if one doesn't read the books carefully, the obvious conclusion drawn for the temporal setting is after 10191 A.D. (which should place the stories told in the Chronicles approximately 8000 years from our era). Wonder how the author of this article pulled out the 13000 years figure... :)

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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby SandRider » 11 Dec 2011 18:36

    that "know then that is the year ten-thousand one-ninety-one" soundbite ....
    taken out of context, and like Chigger said, folks don't study the Appendix ...
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Streaksy » 15 Dec 2011 06:30

    Nice answers. Thanks. Sorry I didn't reply sooner but I've been unexpectantly away for 2 weeks. ;D
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby ahnnah » 17 Dec 2011 12:13

    Rymoah wrote:
    - Condensation of sweat in liquid water is not addressed in Kynes' description of the stillsuit.

    - The "powered-by-human-movement" thing wouldn't provide enough energy to the stillsuit. Ironically, in the last years some studies have been made in producing electricity from heel strikes, but they require some kind of controlled walking, something that would surely attract sandworms. :P


    Rymoah



    I believe sweat is already in liquid form. The collection of it would be easily solved with a semipermeable fabric that allowed moisture to pass inward only, maybe some sort of a passive one way valve system. Who knows. As far as being powered by human movement, it seems obvious to me that the pumping mechanism of the stillsuit is designed to mimick the lymphatic system in the human body. It has no pulse like the circulatory system; the fluids are moved only by the rhythmical contraction and relaxation of the skeletal muscles. That's why one's lower limbs will swell when one is sedentary for long periods of time. If the matrix material of the stillsuit was made from some sort of lycra type fabric, it would expand and contract with the movement of the body thus providing an adequate pumping mechanism. It wouldn't require electricity at all. I always assumed that urine and feces were processed in some sort of organic chemical reaction in a closed area within the stillsuit. Like a living bacteria filter. As the bacteria digested and processed the waste, the reclaimed material could be passed into collection chambers with the same pumping mechanics or even manually on a timed interval. Maybe. I think it's quite possible.

    -edited for grammar-
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    Re: Chapter 04

    Postby ahnnah » 20 Dec 2011 13:45

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    Enno wrote:Its revealed in this chapter that fremen stillsuits stink to high heaven in any enclosed space. I should think they would but wouldnt such a stink be an indicator of sanitary issues or suit security? Excrement aside. Normal body odor is a side effect of bacteria and in a stillsuit if left alone long enough to stink should seriously compromise the potability of the reclamed moisture.


    We'll say they had REALLY good filtration, to the point of sterile filtration (can't remember what size that is right now, 0.5 micron?). How likely that is... who knows? Not impossible probably, though it would require some serious pumping force I believe.



    I still think that the Fremen would probably have used an organic method to process the waste material in the stillsuits. I'm thinking something like those composting port-a-potties that use a certain kind of bacteria to process the waste. As for the stink, well how long can you go without a shower before you start to smell? Human bodies are pretty odiferous in general. In modern times we go to great lengths to neutralize those odors but for those of us who don't :greetings-waveyellow: at some point your body develops it's own unique fragrance. Some people like it, others don't. I think the fact that the Atreides household is one that bathes regularly and probably makes use of perfumes and deodorants makes them more inclined to be repulsed by natural human odors than some less "civilized" folks. You might notice something similar today when standing close to someone who is from India or the Middle East. Not that I'm implying that they are less civilized, just that the norms in different cultures are, well, different.
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    Re: Chapter 04

    Postby D Pope » 20 Dec 2011 21:35

    Ahnnah wrote:
    Enno wrote:wouldnt such a stink be an indicator of sanitary issues or suit security?
    ...well how long can you go without a shower before you start to smell?

    Not the point, a stillsuit is supposed to be a watertight bag. (eyes & mouth 'exposed') If a smell can escape, so can moisture. If it stinks, how could a fellow stay in it for any length of time and stay healthy?

    edit, There's a ziplock in my fridge with all manner of nastyness growing in it, but i'm afraid to open it for the smell.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby D Pope » 20 Dec 2011 22:04

    :whistle:
    Last edited by D Pope on 20 Dec 2011 22:12, edited 2 times in total.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Dec 2011 22:06

    Merged posts from Dune - Chapter 4
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Dec 2011 09:14

    Yeh, it says they stink in small spaces because of "those suits they wear". Maybe the suits themselves stink..? It must have to be concentrated spice muck or something that the smell is. My original point , really, was: sweat + wind on exposed skin = temperature reduction. Stillsuits don't have the wind component.

    If Frank was around now, I just think he'd wish he kept the workings a bit more vague. He likes to explain things like that but leaves room for ambiguity. I suppose the stillsuit could work with dynamoes and filters we don't have yet, but you'd have thought the official description wouldnt have said "the sweat, having cooled the skin, is collected..." because that's a huge unambiguous contradiction of physics established centuries ago. It's one of the "agh shame about that line" parts when I come accross it. Doesn't make like the book less, of course. It's so balanced that mistakes like that stand out more. :P
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Dec 2011 09:19

    Wait a minute... maybe the "they stink" thing means they stink when they take their suits off indoors. Which I'm sure they often do. They're not all totally sietch-native recluses. They're not the desert Armish. They deal with people and comprimise for political reasons. We know from Paul and Jessica's first visit to Tabr that they stink when they strip off.

    And, yeah, that does pose the problem of hygene. Those suits must be a biodome paradise for microbic smell makers. They must wash often, I guess. In sand... Er...
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby D Pope » 22 Dec 2011 13:43

    I think the quote goes something like, '...they stink to heaven in any enclosed space...'
    Ok, it's funny and plausable at first glance. I think Frank made a mistake adding that line for reasons i've listed.



    Kynes decription says the suit cools the body at near normal rate, i'm ok with that because I think they'll be using a material that has yet to be conceived.
    There've been discussions about pumping and filters, walking and breathing have always been enough as far as i'm concerned. I imagine the inner layer working by capillary action so the only force required would be for moving liquid to the drinking tube -and for less interesting systems.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Dec 2011 16:35

    So... it would make more sense if sweat doesn't just soak out through the first layer, but is somehow unnaturally vapourised. It won't be forced to absorb thermal energy that isn't already in it without it being vapourised below boiling point. So yeah, I guess the "...having cooled the skin..." thing can work. But if I was sumamrising the method to a Duke I'd probably not leave out the most important and advanced fete of the device. :P It's like saying a helicopter is a "high efficiency booth". Doesn't addess the fundamental method.

    I do think it's a mistake on Frank's part, and, like all most mistakes, it can be explained with something the author didn't intend - especially with unwritten-future sci-fi. I still say he didn't think it through and made an error. Even geniuses can make mistakes you know. :P
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby D Pope » 22 Dec 2011 18:06

    A water tight outer layer that conducts heat better when the inner most layer is absorbing sweat...

    I'd like to say that a seemingly inadequate description of a common in-universe item is good writing.
    If my apartment were the setting for a book, i'd not over-describe the TV remote or the amazing details for tying my turban.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Dec 2011 20:22

    So you'd not bring it up, then. Frank did. :P
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    Re: Physics of Stillsuits

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Dec 2011 20:23

    No, he's saying that the fact that FH didn't describe it in even greater detail makes sense from a writing point of view.

    In my opinion, this is good, because it seems to me that the bloody things wouldn't work at all so the less he said the better! :wink:
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