Paul as god's messenger.

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tenfingersofdoom
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Paul as god's messenger.

Postby tenfingersofdoom » 21 Oct 2011 00:23

i remember somewhere in the appendix to dune, possibly the last paragraph, there is a rhetorical question or quote about how paul is gods tool to bring the true religion to the universe. this could be my own misquote, i write most of these questions when i am at work so i cant double check my assumptions too well. since the bene gesserit's purpose of the kwisatz haderach is to bring humanity under single rule, and the golden path and scattering are born out of paul's decisions, could frank be creating a model for the destruction of religion? this has been bugging me for a while and i had to get it out.

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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Oct 2011 08:13

tenfingersofdoom wrote:i remember somewhere in the appendix to dune, possibly the last paragraph, there is a rhetorical question or quote about how paul is gods tool to bring the true religion to the universe. this could be my own misquote, i write most of these questions when i am at work so i cant double check my assumptions too well. since the bene gesserit's purpose of the kwisatz haderach is to bring humanity under single rule, and the golden path and scattering are born out of paul's decisions, could frank be creating a model for the destruction of religion? this has been bugging me for a while and i had to get it out.


Religion is never destroyed in the Duniverse.
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tenfingersofdoom
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby tenfingersofdoom » 28 Oct 2011 01:50

But it is about teaching people to people to think for themselves. Teaching humanity that fact to the point where god emperor Leto himself becomes the enemy of humanity by his own design. Thus the scattering. He teaches people to avoid centralized power, an essence of modern religion.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2011 05:30

But people still pray to him, even in the scattering.
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lotek
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby lotek » 28 Oct 2011 05:42

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I beg to differ, religion is a means of control and propaganda in the Duniverse, there might be true believers but the Missionaria is there to show us the real use of religion.
You don't really see anyone with some power actually believing in what they profess, the ones that do pretend to reach their own goals.
(and more generally speaking it is pretty obvious religion doesn't need you to think for yourself, I mean come on if people did that there really wouldn't be half of the shit we have in the world right now)

I don't believe Leto II is or wants to be the enemy of humanity, I always felt what he was doing was the lesser of two evils, just like Paul he had to face decisions amplified by who he was.
But he always appeared a victim of his fate to me.

To be more precise, if there had been another tool for the GP than religion it would have been chosen, and it this case it's the end goal that matters, not how you get there.

EDIT TO ADD
I put the Bene Tleilax in a different "file", their attitude to religion being so secretive makes it less relevant to the rest of the Imperium
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 Oct 2011 15:21

Nobody IN the Dune Universe is taught to stop relying on a centralized power, they're FORCED into a situation (Scattering) where this is impossible, and everyone we get to see as characters pretty much behaves in the same way towardsa religion that they did in the earlier books.

It's the READER that actually gets this lesson in my opinion, not the people in-universe. I think Leto didn't so much try to correct stupidity, so much as to force humanity into a situation where it's never ending stupidity wasn't really a threat to itself as a whole anymore.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Oct 2011 15:22

I think he added an instinct.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby D Pope » 28 Oct 2011 15:47

AToE wrote: I think Leto didn't so much try to correct stupidity, so much as to force humanity into a situation where it's never ending stupidity wasn't really a threat to itself as a whole anymore.
Well put!
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 28 Oct 2011 16:23

Freakzilla wrote:I think he added an instinct.

I agree. Leto II wanted to sharpen what was blunted in humanity by centuries of Corrino rule (stagnation). Religion, as much as I dislike it, will always be part of how people describe existence. Call it a collective metaphorical understanding of reality. Nevertheless, as much as it is criticized during the saga, eliminating religion is not the main target of Leto's Golden path; in my humble opinion, it is complacency (which leads to stagnation) that the God Emperor wanted to eradicate.
D Pope wrote:
AToE wrote: I think Leto didn't so much try to correct stupidity, so much as to force humanity into a situation where it's never ending stupidity wasn't really a threat to itself as a whole anymore.
Well put!

I could not have put it better myself. :)
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Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 28 Oct 2011 17:51

I think there was an instinct added as well as Leto always hinted there was more to it, he wanted to teach humanity a lesson they'd remember in their bones - I just don't think this is actually showcased in any grand way in the final 2 books.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 29 Oct 2011 17:32

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I think there was an instinct added as well as Leto always hinted there was more to it, he wanted to teach humanity a lesson they'd remember in their bones - I just don't think this is actually showcased in any grand way in the final 2 books.

I will keep this in mind when i reach Heretics and Chapterhouse. From what I remember, you may be right. But maybe the instinct is a combination of having broken the oracular vision's grip on the future (Siona's genes) and seeding a healthy distrust of overly centralized and concentrated forms of power. Not really sure though...
Leto kinda "rebooted" humanity. (really excited about rereading GEoD)
Last edited by Nietzsche's mustache on 29 Oct 2011 18:00, edited 1 time in total.
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
-Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-Leto II

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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Serkanner » 29 Oct 2011 17:45

Just to make things clear for myself: have you read HoD and Ch:D or haven't you? Just to avoid spoilers.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 29 Oct 2011 17:52

I have read them 4 times, but its been a while (2-3 years) since my last "pilgrimage". At the moment I'm on my fifth reading of CoD.
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
-Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-Leto II

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Serkanner
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Serkanner » 29 Oct 2011 17:57

Nietzsche's mustache wrote:I have read them 4 times, but its been a while (2-3 years) since my last "pilgrimage". At the moment I'm on my fifth reading of CoD.


Thanks. :D ... I am sure you are enjoying the journey we have all been on several times. Needless to say it's also for me again time to join the Hajj again.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Nietzsche's mustache » 29 Oct 2011 18:17

Serkanner wrote:
Nietzsche's mustache wrote:I have read them 4 times, but its been a while (2-3 years) since my last "pilgrimage". At the moment I'm on my fifth reading of CoD.


Thanks. :D ... I am sure you are enjoying the journey we have all been on several times. Needless to say it's also for me again time to join the Hajj again.

That I am! Its almost therapeutic; living surrounded by ignorance and submerged in mediocrity takes its toll. Thank Guldur for Jacurutu.
But it is the body that is inspired: let us keep "the soul" out of it.
-Friedrich W. Nietzsche in Ecce Homo (1888)

Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty.
-Leto II

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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Freakzilla » 30 Oct 2011 08:30

A Thing of Eternity wrote:I think there was an instinct added as well as Leto always hinted there was more to it, he wanted to teach humanity a lesson they'd remember in their bones - I just don't think this is actually showcased in any grand way in the final 2 books.


Oh but I do, in Miles Teg. We barely saw it in Siona. It's Other Memory just below the subconscious level, with a little prescience, too.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Oct 2011 19:14

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I think there was an instinct added as well as Leto always hinted there was more to it, he wanted to teach humanity a lesson they'd remember in their bones - I just don't think this is actually showcased in any grand way in the final 2 books.


Oh but I do, in Miles Teg. We barely saw it in Siona. It's Other Memory just below the subconscious level, with a little prescience, too.


Ok fair enough, but I don't think that really showcases humanity as a whole, more something new emerging in a select few. What I'm saying is that the vast majority of the (shown) universe didn't seem to really have learn much of anything, same old idiots humanity has always been.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby georgiedenbro » 10 Sep 2014 15:59

I don't think Leto's message was about learning, it was about breeding, and creating conditions that would necessitate change. You don't try to teach horses to be faster, you breed them that way and on average the descendants are faster. Similarly, I think Leto II bred into humanity a subtle but important change, as Freak points out. I do believe that change included a propensity for unpredictability, with a touch of rebelliousness, and a bit more 'morality' (via Duncan) in the gene pool. By repeatedly reintroducing Duncan's DNA into the gene pool in various generations he allowed for Duncan's moral attributes to be more than just one little guy in OM, but rather an army of Duncans plus his countless offspring. Even if the RM's couldn't delve into their male OM to see the Duncans directly they'd still be in there somewhere, under the surface.

I do agree, though, that for the changes in breeding to reach the masses it would take a long time, as initially the Duncan/Siona DNA would be restricted to a few pockets of descendants as well as those, like the BG, who would deliberately harvest the DNA and spread it around. After a few thousand years I do doubt that Leto II's genetic lessons would have reached everyone, but at least a lot of people had them.

As for the actual learning that happened under Leto II - to hate a tyrant and want to be free - that memory and instinct wouldn't last forever; it never does and isn't enough in the long-term. Look at the U.S. for real-life evidence of this. 200 years pass and the instinct to hate tyranny is largely gone, the memory just a chapter in a textbook. The only real lasting changes Leto II brought were the Scattering, along with some select breeding tweaks.
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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Iamjackswastedlife » 26 Dec 2015 04:05

Hello everyone,just joined this forum. I have been a life long fan of The Dune universe.
I have been pondering many questions about Dune but the one that haunts my imagination is if Liet Kynes had lived,would he have tried to assassinate Paul Atreides ?
My reason for this question is that Liet would have seen what The Atreides scion would become. How would he have felt that yet another imperial family had come to His home and exploited his Fremen for their own ends ?
Liet was very sharp,almost prescient himself in his intelligence. Would he have seen the Jihad coming ?
Any thoughts on this would be welcome.

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Re: Paul as god's messenger.

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Dec 2015 16:53

The Fremen dream of the ecological transformation was originally Liet's dream so he may have welcomed the opportunity to speed up the pace. I don't know if he would have predicted the Jihad.

Iamjackswastedlife wrote:Liet was very sharp,almost prescient himself in his intelligence.


Not sure where you get that from.
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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