Jessica and Paul

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Dravition
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Jessica and Paul

Postby Dravition » 11 Sep 2011 00:44

It's been a while since I've read the first book of the series. Can anyone characterize for me the nature of Jessica's relationship with Paul after the Atreides-Fremen bond is created?

Also, what were Jessica's primary loyalties throughout DM and CoD?
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inhuien
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby inhuien » 12 Sep 2011 07:10

In the order asked, fearful, and to the BG.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2011 09:48

inhuien wrote:In the order asked, fearful, and to the BG.


I'd dissagree and say that Jessica's primary loyalty, at the time of her and Paul's exile with the Fremen, to be to House Atreides.

Jessica did not manipulate the legends of the Missionaria Protectiva for the Bene Gesserit's benifit, she did it for House Atreides, to keep her son alive, whom she'd conceived in disobedience to the Sisterhood.

I'd go as far to say that everything she did was probably a BG cardinal sin. Had she been under BG supervision it may have been a much different story.
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inhuien
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby inhuien » 12 Sep 2011 10:37

If we were talking purely about Dune I'd agree with you in a heartbeat, but the op questions her allegiances during DM and CoD.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Apjak » 12 Sep 2011 10:42

However keeping Paul alive at all costs is still in the best interests of the BG breeding program. Once she knows Paul to be the KH, she probably should have and could have gotten a message to the BG if she wanted to be truly loyal to them. I think as a wild Reverend Mother it took awhile to assimilate back to the BG. I think it's safe to assume that she slowly reverted to BG during the expanse of time covering DM and leading up to CoD.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2011 10:48

inhuien wrote:If we were talking purely about Dune I'd agree with you in a heartbeat, but the op questions her allegiances during DM and CoD.


:oops:

Yeah, she was totally BG in DM and CoD.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2011 11:03

Apjak wrote:However keeping Paul alive at all costs is still in the best interests of the BG breeding program.


Yes, but I don't remember Jessica even thinking about getting a message out to the BG except for once, just before Paul's duel with Jamis.

Once she knows Paul to be the KH, she probably should have and could have gotten a message to the BG if she wanted to be truly loyal to them.


Of course.

I think as a wild Reverend Mother it took awhile to assimilate back to the BG. I think it's safe to assume that she slowly reverted to BG during the expanse of time covering DM and leading up to CoD.


I think what makes the BG ultimately loyal is OM, I believe there's a quote to back that up in one of the two latter books. Jessica started out with just Fremen Shared Memory and Ancestral Memory. So she was probably more Fremen than anything at that point. When she got back to The Sisterhood I'm sure they Shared with her extensively giving her more BG OM than Fremen.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Apjak » 12 Sep 2011 11:08

Freakzilla wrote:
I think what makes the BG ultimately loyal is OM, I believe there's a quote to back that up in one of the two latter books. Jessica started out with just Fremen Shared Memory and Ancestral Memory. So she was probably more Fremen than anything at that point. When she got back to The Sisterhood I'm sure they Shared with her extensively giving her more BG OM than Fremen.


I agree, but I'm not sure how far FH had worked out OM sharing before HoD.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2011 11:11

Apjak wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
I think what makes the BG ultimately loyal is OM, I believe there's a quote to back that up in one of the two latter books. Jessica started out with just Fremen Shared Memory and Ancestral Memory. So she was probably more Fremen than anything at that point. When she got back to The Sisterhood I'm sure they Shared with her extensively giving her more BG OM than Fremen.


I agree, but I'm not sure how far FH had worked out OM sharing before HoD.



Jessica Shared with Ramallo in Dune.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Apjak » 12 Sep 2011 15:43

Freakzilla wrote:
Jessica Shared with Ramallo in Dune.


But that was during the spice trance. Even Fremen without BG sensitivity called it "the sharing". I'm just under the suspicion that FH hadn't worked in the OM touch sharing to explain Jessica's return to the BG or he'd have mentioned it. In the latter two books I get the impression that mass sharing was something only done in extremis. Of course I could be wrong, but I think the BG avoided having one mass OM, partly because they still prized their individuality.
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We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2011 15:59

Apjak wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Jessica Shared with Ramallo in Dune.


But that was during the spice trance. Even Fremen without BG sensitivity called it "the sharing". I'm just under the suspicion that FH hadn't worked in the OM touch sharing to explain Jessica's return to the BG or he'd have mentioned it. In the latter two books I get the impression that mass sharing was something only done in extremis. Of course I could be wrong, but I think the BG avoided having one mass OM, partly because they still prized their individuality.



No, I'm not saying FH had that thought out when he wrote Dune, maybe he did though. This is just my own rationalization.

However, I think the BG would want the entire Fremen ancestral line of RMs, and sharing is a two-way street.
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Sep 2011 16:01

Apart from being able to share while under the spice trance, they can also Share when death is imminent.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Sep 2011 16:51

I thought they could just do it at will, but it has been a few years since I read the last couple books so that could be totally incorrect!
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Apjak
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Re: Jessica and Paul

Postby Apjak » 12 Sep 2011 19:33

They were doing it by "touching foreheads" in Heretics.
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert


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