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    Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

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    Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 04 Sep 2011 15:43

    Anyone else feel that Feyd and Farad'n could have evolved into some really interesting characters?

    One of the very few disappointments for me in Dune was when Feyd died. It would have been great to have him as a prisoner in Dune Messiah.. It could have actually lengthened DM without lessening its value (for me DM is the best in the series).

    Farad'n too seemed to be a really interesting character. But the inevitable superhumanity of Leto II made him quite weak towards the end. Granted that he does ultimately play a major role in the history of later books, but he should have atleast been able to pose some sort of threat. This is my major complaint about Dune: The primary character ends up so utterly powerful that even the most formidable foe just withers away. The same thing happened with the Baron Harkonnen: I really found him so damn brilliant and so damn devious that I honestly didn't expect him to be outdone so easily, so pitifully.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby SadisticCynic » 04 Sep 2011 19:07

    I vaguely recall that Paul being too powerful was an initial complaint by the (possible) publishers.

    The idea is that Paul's prescience is his most powerful enemy. Also, remember that, despite his deviousness the Baron is helpless in front of people like Count Fenring.

    Feyd is almost like an anti-Paul, so it wouldn't really make sense (to me) to keep him after Paul's apparent victory. Farad'n on the other hand - I agree, I would like more of him, but he wasn't a threat like his mother, or House Corrino in general. This is especially true after he is trained by Jessica; he ceases to be Corrino and becomes Bene Gesserit.

    Interesting that you find DM to be the best. You are certainly not alone, if I recall some of the preferences around here.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Sep 2011 19:28

    I think DM is the most important novel in the bunch, not necessarily my favourite, but close to it if not.

    Feyd I'm completely satisfied with his end, nothing else really would have made sense, but a little more fleshing out during the book certainly might have been nice (remember FH had a lot of trouble getting Dune published, partially due to it's length).

    Farad'n I dissagree that he would have been a threat, he was no longer a threat once he learned as much as he did later in the book, he was never really an antagonist at all actually. I agree totally that I would have liked to know more about him and what happened after the events of CoD, but if FH felt nothing happened there that was worth writing about then FH knows best.

    EDIT: and yes, the overwhelming power of Paul and his son seems a little weird at first from a story point of view, until you realize that Dune isn't really about self-vs-other, it's more about about self-vs-self (even if scaled up to the levels dealt with by the Scattering, part of what the Golden Path did was plan for humans to always be self destructive, and spread them out so much that they could never really truely be a threat to themselves as a whole). Paul didn't need more powerful enemies when he had himself to deal with.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 04 Sep 2011 19:44

    Oh and welcome to Jacurutu! It's always nice to see someone just jump in with an intelligent post, but don't forget to drop by the Introduce Yourself subforum and tell us a bit about yourself!
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 05 Sep 2011 12:54

    SadisticCynic wrote:I vaguely recall that Paul being too powerful was an initial complaint by the (possible) publishers.

    The idea is that Paul's prescience is his most powerful enemy. Also, remember that, despite his deviousness the Baron is helpless in front of people like Count Fenring.

    Feyd is almost like an anti-Paul, so it wouldn't really make sense (to me) to keep him after Paul's apparent victory. Farad'n on the other hand - I agree, I would like more of him, but he wasn't a threat like his mother, or House Corrino in general. This is especially true after he is trained by Jessica; he ceases to be Corrino and becomes Bene Gesserit.

    Interesting that you find DM to be the best. You are certainly not alone, if I recall some of the preferences around here.


    Someone from House Harkonnen should have survived (excluding Jessica, Paul, etc.). It would have added a nice element to the story. While I agree that Feyd was the anti-Paul, we aren't dealing with a scenario of one-or-the-other. The final fight between the two was quite needless. Although the fight was rather close, it did end predictably and thus had no one on the edge of their seats. I don't know if you've played any RTS game, but its like staying ingame after the defeated opponent leaves to destroy his harmless farms and workers - the book had reached its conclusion, but we had to spend time in killing a defeated opponent. Think about how wonderful DM would have been if we could have lengthened it by say eighty pages with something substantial! And a surviving Harkonnen would certainly be substantial.

    I agree with Farad'n losing any threat he posed towards the end. But I still felt his story was unfinished. It would have been great if: a) he tried to resist using his BG abilities. b) he embraced it willingly (possibly even foolishly like accepting a Leto as a God). In other words, there should have been something from his point of view. It would have been fantastic if there was an epilogue with him as its narrator (he does end up as the historian after all).

    Oh yes, I did love DM because, although less 'epic' than Dune, it was much more fast-paced and took place in familiar territory. Granted it would be nothing without Dune.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I think DM is the most important novel in the bunch, not necessarily my favourite, but close to it if not.

    Feyd I'm completely satisfied with his end, nothing else really would have made sense, but a little more fleshing out during the book certainly might have been nice (remember FH had a lot of trouble getting Dune published, partially due to it's length).

    Farad'n I dissagree that he would have been a threat, he was no longer a threat once he learned as much as he did later in the book, he was never really an antagonist at all actually. I agree totally that I would have liked to know more about him and what happened after the events of CoD, but if FH felt nothing happened there that was worth writing about then FH knows best.

    EDIT: and yes, the overwhelming power of Paul and his son seems a little weird at first from a story point of view, until you realize that Dune isn't really about self-vs-other, it's more about about self-vs-self (even if scaled up to the levels dealt with by the Scattering, part of what the Golden Path did was plan for humans to always be self destructive, and spread them out so much that they could never really truely be a threat to themselves as a whole). Paul didn't need more powerful enemies when he had himself to deal with.


    I wholly agree with the fleshing out part. The antagonists seemed so promising, it just did the book wrong to give them such an ending. The publishing problem.. well those always are some of the tragedies in media. Nothing gets through without the essential middleman.

    About Farad'n, check my reply to SadisticCynic above.

    I'd agree with the self versus self aspect if it were about the REST of the series. Dune was more of a classic struggle and rise to power, even though the jihad had a more universal outlook. It's the only book in the series which doesn't get vague regarding simple problems like self versus another. The other books were, as you said, more about internal struggles and ALSO more about humanity as a whole than just a boy and his house. Even though the ending did seem inevitable when it was concluded that the jihad would have to take place, the nullification of the antagonists was a big blow to the storyline - the entire book had Paul working really hard (YES, against himself most of the time, I'll grant you that), and while you could say Paul deserved it for his efforts, the easy flick-of-the-wrist ending of the Dune just didn't seem right in the spirit of the storyline.

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:Oh and welcome to Jacurutu! It's always nice to see someone just jump in with an intelligent post, but don't forget to drop by the Introduce Yourself subforum and tell us a bit about yourself!


    Thanks! I didn't notice that, I'll go there right away!
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Serkanner » 05 Sep 2011 13:31

    I think the end of "Dune" is actually quite good. The book works its way to a climax similar to that of a Greek tragedy. All the time Paul had been aware of the consequences of what he was doing --> Jihad! ... yet he still goes on and that is an important part of the tragedy that Paul is. Already at the end of Dune the reader "knows" that Paul is NOT a hero, which is the opposite of what the storyline tries to lure you in. When I read the book at fourteen I thought Paul indeed was the hero ... as I grew up and re-read the book it gradually become clear that was not the case at all.

    You have stated that you miss certain storylines in the books. I fully disagree with you. Frank wrote was what was needed to tell the story. It is the preeqs that think there is a need for more. Most of us here are not preeqs and accept the six novels as they are.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 05 Sep 2011 13:42

    The prequels are overdone in giving us more. I'm asking for a little addition, a subtlety which would have made the book a little more satisfying. It wouldn't be more than we'd want to know. And Paul isn't a hero, that I can see. But his IS the protagonist and he IS all powerful.
    When Paul was three I found him wearing lingerie I was planning to wear for my Duke. I asked him: "How can this be?" and he answered: "For I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" I was proud since these were the first words Paul ever spoke, but now I knew for certain that my Paul was a special boy. I brought him to Duncan's room while he was busy "training" a young maidservant in the Art of Sword-Handling. My Paul shall be the best! - Tleszer
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 05 Sep 2011 14:53

    When it comes to the first book I definitely think it could have been fleshed out more. Absolutely, that's not just me saying that, FH wanted more but he was forced to shorten it.

    The ending of Dune needed to be the way it was I think in order to make Dune Messiah work. The victory is so absolute, and frankly kinda easy, in Dune that when DM starts and it's all falling down it has more of an emotional impact on the reader and helps hammer home some of the messages better.

    The other thing to consider is that FH conceived of the first 3 books as really being 1 single book, so just as some of the books in LoTR don't really have proper endings in many peoples' eyes, neither does Dune, but then again, neither does it need one.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby SadisticCynic » 05 Sep 2011 19:38

    Just one thing:

    Someone from House Harkonnen should have survived


    House Harkonnen did survive, long enough to build the no-room on Geidi Prime. That tech was certainly not available until around the God Emperor's reign. But I think that you mean the Harkonnen's we are introduced to. I'm not sure their survival would have made a difference - even House Corrino (much more powerful than Harkonnnen) wasn't much of a threat until nearly 20 years after Dune, after much planning and underhanded tactics.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 06 Sep 2011 02:27

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:When it comes to the first book I definitely think it could have been fleshed out more. Absolutely, that's not just me saying that, FH wanted more but he was forced to shorten it.

    The ending of Dune needed to be the way it was I think in order to make Dune Messiah work. The victory is so absolute, and frankly kinda easy, in Dune that when DM starts and it's all falling down it has more of an emotional impact on the reader and helps hammer home some of the messages better.

    The other thing to consider is that FH conceived of the first 3 books as really being 1 single book, so just as some of the books in LoTR don't really have proper endings in many peoples' eyes, neither does Dune, but then again, neither does it need one.


    Oh I didn't know the last bit. That seems a valid reason. And I agree about the DM part. The rise of an empire but the personal fall of its leader, yeah that's sweet.

    SadisticCynic wrote:Just one thing:

    Someone from House Harkonnen should have survived


    House Harkonnen did survive, long enough to build the no-room on Geidi Prime. That tech was certainly not available until around the God Emperor's reign. But I think that you mean the Harkonnen's we are introduced to. I'm not sure their survival would have made a difference - even House Corrino (much more powerful than Harkonnnen) wasn't much of a threat until nearly 20 years after Dune, after much planning and underhanded tactics.


    Yes that's what I implied, I'm sorry. It isn't really the threat part I'm looking at. More of a point of view. If you recall, the last few books were a lot about the point of view of the currently focused character. The switches between Odrade and Taraza are a good example. While both have the same ideals, each one seems to find some threat or flaws with the other. So if we had Feyd just watching the jihad unfold, it would have been a pleasant experience. Who knows, he could also be wrongly killed by Stilgar towards the end alaung with Mohaim and the other conspirators. Or he could have just been another conspirator.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Sep 2011 02:59

    I personally just would have liked to see him and the Baron fleshed out better in the first novel, it felt like there could have been a lot more depth there but it would have required a lot more length. I liked him dying though, he wasn't really the type that it was safe to keep alive.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby JustSomeGuy » 06 Sep 2011 03:20

    I just had to jump in here and say that I liked the characters just fine they were. Yeah, we could have been told more about some characters- Gurney comes to mind, or- what was up with Bijaz?

    It's been awhile since I read the books and the last time I tried I wasn't able to give Dune the time it needed, so I stopped.

    The thing I liked about Frank Herbert's Dune characters is that they were individuals. I could of been told more about them, but I was told enough to have a sense of who they were. I could fill in the spots on my own; I could use my imagination and feel satisfied.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 06 Sep 2011 03:40

    JustSomeGuy wrote:The thing I liked about Frank Herbert's Dune characters is that they were individuals. I could of been told more about them, but I was told enough to have a sense of who they were. I could fill in the spots on my own; I could use my imagination and feel satisfied.


    I agree with you except that I found the antagonists pretty one-sided in Dune. The Baron shows a tiny hint of redeeming quality, but that's about it. It would have been nice to have some more depth to them. Obviously it's an excellent book, one of the greatest ever written - but it isn't perfect and that's one of it's flaws in my opinion.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 06 Sep 2011 05:29

    Yes one of the traits about the Baron that I liked was that instead of killing or punishing Feyd for attempting to assassinate him, he instead punished him for failing in his attempt. That was brilliant.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby SadisticCynic » 06 Sep 2011 09:06

    I see where you're coming from now Demerzel. Feyd's view on the Fremen jihad would've been quite fascinating.

    JustSomeGuy - I wuold've liked to have seen more of Duncan personally. It is said that his popularity is what prompted FH to bring him back in DM, but I've always felt there wasn't enough of him to make him a favourite.

    (Kind of bit like the popularity of Boba Fett from the original Star Wars films. Sure Fett is badass, but he doesn't really seem to do alot.)

    He does get more interesting subsequent to Dune though; I love Zensunni Duncan. :)
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 06 Sep 2011 09:57

    In Dune, I wasn't very impressed with Duncan at all, especially when he returns to base drunk. Only his sacrifice later gave him some respect in my eyes.

    Also, I'm glad he lived beyond Muad'Dib's time, cause while Paul and Jessica were alive, he was just too 'My lady!' for my tastes. And yeah, zensunni Duncan :D.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby lotek » 06 Sep 2011 10:40

    the drunk part was there imo on purpose to fit the general pattern in Dune, "perfection doesn't exist"

    With Duncan FH created a character that seemed like perfect in its own way, and the reader needed to be reminded that even heroes are flawed by their humanity.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 06 Sep 2011 12:19

    In the first book, that was the ONLY face of Duncan we've seen before his sacrifice. Not much to go with to call him a hero. Later on though, yes indeed, hero he is.
    When Paul was three I found him wearing lingerie I was planning to wear for my Duke. I asked him: "How can this be?" and he answered: "For I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" I was proud since these were the first words Paul ever spoke, but now I knew for certain that my Paul was a special boy. I brought him to Duncan's room while he was busy "training" a young maidservant in the Art of Sword-Handling. My Paul shall be the best! - Tleszer
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby trang » 07 Sep 2011 11:54

    less is more, nothing is perfect...themes throughout the books. Duncan was sent to spearhead finding the fremen and befriending them. That was suttle, but he his given task to represent all, thats pretty awesome. He accomplish's that task with flying colors. I think he was defined well enough, and godemperor knows we get plenty later.

    Feyhd and Faradn I think were fine, again less is more, have to read or detect whats not in print, based on that they seemed defined well for me.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Sep 2011 13:12

    I'll admit when I first got to Messiah and they brought Duncan back I barely had any memory of who he really was as a character (turned out I'd somehow missed the ENTIRE chapter where he died, had to go back and read it, must have put the book mark in the wrong place or something...).

    I don't have a real issue with how any of it turned out frankly, but I think with some of this we can catch glimses of what FH might have expanded on had he not been so limited by page count.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby Demerzel » 07 Sep 2011 14:18

    trang wrote:less is more, nothing is perfect...themes throughout the books. Duncan was sent to spearhead finding the fremen and befriending them. That was suttle, but he his given task to represent all, thats pretty awesome. He accomplish's that task with flying colors. I think he was defined well enough, and godemperor knows we get plenty later.

    Feyhd and Faradn I think were fine, again less is more, have to read or detect whats not in print, based on that they seemed defined well for me.
    Well I didn't look at it that way on my first read, and I don't think very many did :(. As A Thing of Eternity (can I call you AToE?) said (although for different reasons), he wasn't well defined enough for his resurrection to seem valid. My second reading of Dune, of course, came with the knowledge of the next five books, so I appreciated the character and wished there was more of him.
    When Paul was three I found him wearing lingerie I was planning to wear for my Duke. I asked him: "How can this be?" and he answered: "For I am the Kwisatz Haderach!" I was proud since these were the first words Paul ever spoke, but now I knew for certain that my Paul was a special boy. I brought him to Duncan's room while he was busy "training" a young maidservant in the Art of Sword-Handling. My Paul shall be the best! - Tleszer
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 07 Sep 2011 15:19

    Demerzel wrote:
    trang wrote:less is more, nothing is perfect...themes throughout the books. Duncan was sent to spearhead finding the fremen and befriending them. That was suttle, but he his given task to represent all, thats pretty awesome. He accomplish's that task with flying colors. I think he was defined well enough, and godemperor knows we get plenty later.

    Feyhd and Faradn I think were fine, again less is more, have to read or detect whats not in print, based on that they seemed defined well for me.
    Well I didn't look at it that way on my first read, and I don't think very many did :(. As A Thing of Eternity (can I call you AToE?) said (although for different reasons), he wasn't well defined enough for his resurrection to seem valid. My second reading of Dune, of course, came with the knowledge of the next five books, so I appreciated the character and wished there was more of him.


    Well to clarify what I said, after I realized I'd missed something in the first book (like an entire chapter) and went back and read it then it all made sense and I was fine again.

    Would have been nice to see him be a little more fleshed out before his death, but it is what it is.


    The quality that the book ended up being, it's at the point where even if FH could have changed some things I probably wouldn't want him to,, sometimes the little flaws are what makes something great.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby SandChigger » 07 Sep 2011 21:35

    Demerzel wrote:A Thing of Eternity (can I call you AToE?)

    That one we call Thang. Or AToE. Or The Feesh Man. :lol:
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 08 Sep 2011 01:06

    SandChigger wrote:
    Demerzel wrote:A Thing of Eternity (can I call you AToE?)

    That one we call Thang. Or AToE. Or The Feesh Man. :lol:


    Hey shut up or I'll get the Black Panthers on you!

    Yes, Thing, Thang, AToE (that's what my handle is on non-Dune sites, just AToE), all good.
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    Re: Promising characters lessened: Feyd'Rautha and Farad'n

    Postby inhuien » 08 Sep 2011 13:26

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