Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Something I noticed starting with Dune Messiah is that FH alludes to a new breed of Fremen quite often. A breed that isn't quite as traditional as their elders, one that has a more wasteful, careless outlook on water conservation, presumably because it isn't as important now that the Fremen no longer need to hide in the shadows. In Children of Dune, I noticed some of the same allusions, in addition to two very telling thoughts. The first, on page 149, concerns Jessica's disdain for Javid. It reads, in part "Our civilization could well die of indifference within before succumbing to external attack." The second occurs on page 219, while Farad' is contemplating reports from his spies on Arrakis "People of the new communities are more volatile, more open; they quarrel and are less responsive to authority. The old sietch folk are more disciplined, more inclined to group actions and they tend to work harder; they are more careful of their resources. The old folk still believe that the orderly society is the fulfillment of the individual. The young grow away from this belief. Those remnants of the older culture which remain look at the young and say: "The death wind has etched away their past."

This comparison between old and new Fremen could serve, in my mind, as a comparision between the "Greatest Generation" of the WW2 era and the subsequent generations that have progressively become more like FH described the new Fremen as being. Does anyone think this is a valid connection on my part?

If you consider the world war 2 generation as the "greatest" I feel you need to explain a bit better what you mean by that. I assume you do not see the German, Japanese, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Manchurian, Sowjet Russian, Finnish, Franco's Spain and on and on and on as "The Greatest Generation" compared to a relatively far more "peaceful" era since world war 2?

Serkanner wrote:If you consider the world war 2 generation as the "greatest" I feel you need to explain a bit better what you mean by that. I assume you do not see the German, Japanese, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Manchurian, Sowjet Russian, Finnish, Franco's Spain and on and on and on as "The Greatest Generation" compared to a relatively far more "peaceful" era since world war 2?

It's an American thing, they call the generation that went and faught WWII "the greatest generation".

Serkanner wrote:If you consider the world war 2 generation as the "greatest" I feel you need to explain a bit better what you mean by that. I assume you do not see the German, Japanese, Italian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Manchurian, Sowjet Russian, Finnish, Franco's Spain and on and on and on as "The Greatest Generation" compared to a relatively far more "peaceful" era since world war 2?

It's a reference to Americans of that era who got through the depression, then kicked some Nazi/Axis ass, then came home and made the consumer generation. There's a book and everything.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss? ... lias%3Daps" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Needless to say I am not an American ... but have always been very grateful during my life for the sacrifices the Allies made to liberate "us" from tyranny.

Me too, I think with that war "us" safely covers every fucking person on the planet. It could have gotten really seriously bad if everyone hadn't stepped it up and Hitler hadn't made the all time dumbest war move of trying to conquor Russia in the bloody winter unprepared.

...Hitler invaded Russia in June.

But anyway, I think Herbert easily could have shown a decline in Fremen society without having it be some kind of ham fisted social commentary on America today. And let's not forget the Greatest Generation also had segregated army units and internment camps for the Japanese, then they went home and elected a government that set up the House UnAmerican Activities Committee.

What about the Russians? I always feel they weren't given proper credit for their role in World War 2. I was once talking to someone playing a Medal of Honor game and complaining to him about there was a lack of focus on the Eastern Front, and he replied "Well there weren't really any big battles there." Ughh. So apparently Operation Barbarossa, the various battles around Kharkov, the Siege of Leningrad, the Battle of Stalingrad, Kursk, Operation Bagration, and the Battle of Berlin aren't big enough for him.

in reality, Soviet Russia deserves the Lion's Share of credit for the defeat of the Third Reich ... the most credit the US Federal Government
could take there would be acknowledgement of the importance of the Lend/Lease program ... the Red Army tied up, bogged down, fought
to a standstill and eventually pushed back the best of the German Army ... the occupational forces Montgomery & Patton pushed out of
North Africa were fairly good units, but eventually out-numbered & out-maneuvered ... by the time of the 1944 invasion of normandy,
the German Army, as it stood in say, 1940, was a shell ... not to diminish the tactical successes of Allied Command, or the personal
sacrifices of Allied Soldiers in that phase of the war, but they really were up against the third & fourth-string German Army units ...
lots of Home Guard, old men & kids, etc; the best of the German Army had already been destroyed on the Eastern Front ...

but with the close of the war against the Axis Powers blending directly into the Cold War against the Soviets, the US Federal Government
could not give credit where it was due ... and since the historical facts of what occurred along the Eastern Front could not be altered or
explained away, they were mostly ignored ... by the press & later the education establishments of Western Governments ....

the reality is that Soviet Russia defeated Germany, and the US Army mopped-up ...

the situation is very different for the Pacific War, of course - there, the US Federal Government can rightly claim the credit ...

the term "Greatest Generation" came from a documentary series (and book) by Tom Brokaw ...

Setzer wrote:...Hitler invaded Russia in June.

Yeah I'm aware - summer and INTO the winter - and didn't really get the shit kicked out of him until his troops froze to death in their summer jackets. My point was that "we all" didn't just kick his ass, he made a massive mistake that allowed for his ass to be kicked much further. Everyone likes to think the good just defeated the bad in WWII because we tried harder, but that's just not the case. Humans alone didn't beat Hitler, snowflakes did their part.

But anyway, I think Herbert easily could have shown a decline in Fremen society without having it be some kind of ham fisted social commentary on America today

This I agree with entirely, the whole decline of the Fremen lines up nicely with the decline of America but doesn't need to have anything to do with it at all to explain why he wrote it.

As far as Russia is concerned I am in total agreement with what sandrider, eternity, and setzer said. Russia never gets the credit it deserves for WW2, and it is very sad to me that they don't. Russian civilian casualties are generally estimated at around 10-15 million. The death toll per day (roughly 6000 if you take the lowest estimate) FAR exceeds that of 9/11, and yet very little is/was done to remember and recognize these lost lives.

As far as my original post, I'm not nessicarily implying that he meant it that way, but its certainly my interpretation, especially given that he was a member of that generation, and Dune was written when counter culture/consumerist America was on the rise.

Setzer wrote:...Hitler invaded Russia in June.
.

would you call that a fair weather nazi ?

A lot of the discipline the Fremen developed was due to 80 years of Harkonnen oppression and the nature of Arrakis. They had to have that discipline to survive Harkonnen extermination raids and the harsh conditions on Arrakis. Thanks to Paul, both those influences on their society are now gone. They've gone from being hunted underdogs on a hellish world to being conquering champions on the lavish new capital of the universe.

I got the impression that while the Harkonnens made them even harder that they were already basically just as disciplined and dangerous. They'd been on Arrakis a long, long time.

Whoa. Very nice. I like being entertained, and I like laughing.

Very funny! Will find me more on the youtube's.

To sum up, Fremen Culture developed because of the conditions on their homeworld. Now that those conditions have changed, so will the culture.

Yup.

And loved the video too, my thoughts on nationalism exactly.

SandRider wrote:in reality, Soviet Russia deserves the Lion's Share of credit for the defeat of the Third Reich ... the most credit the US Federal Government
could take there would be acknowledgement of the importance of the Lend/Lease program ... the Red Army tied up, bogged down, fought
to a standstill and eventually pushed back the best of the German Army ... the occupational forces Montgomery & Patton pushed out of
North Africa were fairly good units, but eventually out-numbered & out-maneuvered ... by the time of the 1944 invasion of normandy,
the German Army, as it stood in say, 1940, was a shell ... not to diminish the tactical successes of Allied Command, or the personal
sacrifices of Allied Soldiers in that phase of the war, but they really were up against the third & fourth-string German Army units ...
lots of Home Guard, old men & kids, etc; the best of the German Army had already been destroyed on the Eastern Front ...

but with the close of the war against the Axis Powers blending directly into the Cold War against the Soviets, the US Federal Government
could not give credit where it was due ... and since the historical facts of what occurred along the Eastern Front could not be altered or
explained away, they were mostly ignored ... by the press & later the education establishments of Western Governments ....

the reality is that Soviet Russia defeated Germany, and the US Army mopped-up ...

the situation is very different for the Pacific War, of course - there, the US Federal Government can rightly claim the credit ...

the term "Greatest Generation" came from a documentary series (and book) by Tom Brokaw ...

While I agree with your general point that many (most?) Americans do not give the Soviet Union enough credit for the defeat of Nazi Germany, you have to remember a few things:

1) The Soviet Union COLLABORATED with the Nazi regime by invading and spitting Poland with them in 1939.
2) The Soviet Union was a brutal dictatorship which killed more of its own people than the Nazis did. As well, the dictatorship's missteps in 1941 and the years prior to that (such as the purge of Red Army officers in the late 1930's and the positioning of Soviet forces so close to the border with Nazi Germany) led directly to the humbling and near-defeat of the Soviet army that summer and fall.
3) The Soviet Union had the relative luxury of fighting a 1-front war since it remained neutral against Japan until the Pacific War was nearly finished. Thus the Soviets were able to pull troops from Siberia in order to defeat Operation Typhoon, the Nazis last gasp at taking Moscow, and launch their own successful Winter counteroffensive.
4) There is absolutely NO WAY, no how that the Soviet Union would have been able to roll back the Nazi conquest without the help of Lend-Lease. At best they would have been able to achieve a stalemate. With the US supplying trucks, locomotives, uniforms, telephone wiring, and planes, Soviet factories were freed up to concentrate on producing vast quantities of weapons that eventually swamped the Germans.

I've been to Russia and was once married to a Russian girl. I know PRECISELY how brutal that war was for the Russian people. There is a film that plays on a loop in a museum right next to Red Square. It's a film of the victory parade of Soviet troops in Red Square in 1945. Soviet divisions are passing for review for Stalin and his cronies as they stand atop Lenin's tomb. The units are carrying captured Nazi banner flags and, as they pass the reviewing stand, they each disdainfully throw these captured banners in a pile. It is such a powerful film and really gives you a sense of how proud and how vital the WWII victory was for Russia.

But let's not over-romanticize it to the point of hyperbole. The US (and British, and Canadian, and Australian, and New Zealand, and Indian) troops that fought the Nazis in Africa and Western Europe were not facing "Home Guard" units made up of boys and old men. They were not facing 4th-string units either. In fact, Hitler pulled units FROM THE EASTERN FRONT in order to bolster defenses in the West, which he considered a more vital theater. The Allies faced top-notch units in the West, including some of the elite SS units. What *is* true is that the vast majority of German army divisions were engaged on the Eastern Front. But the Western allies faced and defeated the German navy alone, along with the bulk of the German air force. AND they were also strategically bombing the German homeland, something Russia never did. AND they were also defeating Japan at the same time.

So yes, Russia deserves ample credit for the defeat of Nazi Germany and certainly paid the highest price in blood to do so. But to say that the "Soviet Army defeated Nazi Germany and the US Army mopped up" is grossly inaccurate and a slander to all the fine men who fought and died to defeat Nazism from all the Western Allied countries.

Okay, I now yield the soapbox.