Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

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Streaksy
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Streaksy » 15 Sep 2011 10:13

The prolonged continuation of Duncan was a bit of a miss for me too. I know why he's there (I think) but it doesn't really do favours for the flow. He served a great purpose in Dune, a brilliant purpose in Messiah, but when he appeared again it seemed a bit out-of-hand. Him being constantly ressurected as a comfort for the God-Emperor is kind of a drag and... I dunno... it's one of the few seemingly experimental things Frank used that seems to affect narrative flow just a little too much. Even when he got his memory-of-all-past-lives X-Men power I was a little bored of it by then.

I love the Dunes more than any other novels (or canon that I can think of) but it does get a bit diffuse toward the middle-end, I think.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 15 Sep 2011 10:50

Streaksy wrote:The prolonged continuation of Duncan was a bit of a miss for me too. I know why he's there (I think) but it doesn't really do favours for the flow. He served a great purpose in Dune, a brilliant purpose in Messiah, but when he appeared again it seemed a bit out-of-hand. Him being constantly ressurected as a comfort for the God-Emperor is kind of a drag and... I dunno... it's one of the few seemingly experimental things Frank used that seems to affect narrative flow just a little too much. Even when he got his memory-of-all-past-lives X-Men power I was a little bored of it by then.

I love the Dunes more than any other novels (or canon that I can think of) but it does get a bit diffuse toward the middle-end, I think.


I agree, I remember my first time reading the last two books wanting to skip the chapters with Duncan.
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Streaksy
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Streaksy » 15 Sep 2011 11:09

When he and whats-her-name finally took out Leto II, I was like... finally a reason for Duncan to be such a consideration! But it wasn't enough to justify the dragging Duncan fixation. The later Dune books were obviously still as much a labour-of-love as the first one and I wouldn't change them. I'll just keep trying to aprpeciate them in their intended way because Franky was no fool. I'm sure the message/vibe is there to find, if you know what I mean. I was a teenager when I read past Children of Dune, like 15 years ago. Remember it pretty well but I should read them again. It's just hard to read now with my eye problems, and audiobooks are terrible. Being in this forum is motivating me to trying again.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby muddism » 20 Sep 2011 16:38

Here's an idea that I haven't heard mentioned...(spoiler) Leto II saw what would happen with Duncan eventually. He knew that the BG would make a modified ghola, and that the tleilaxu would use all of their accumulated genes into one ghola, thus waking all of his serial memories. The knowledge and life understanding that 7,000 years of life after life made Duncan the ultimate human being. He knew that this would awaken in him the ability to see the tycheon net and would be the only real chance that humanity had to fight off the thinking machines when they returned...Leto II had perfect prescience and knew this would be required to happen. As to why it was Duncan and not someone else I think most of those reasons have been covered...

1) Leto I and Paul's love for Duncan I think was a major reason
2) His unquestioning core of loyalty
3) His antique (possibly somewhat naive) values, to keep reintroducing into the gene pool...traits that may have been bred out of humanity otherwise.
4) Repayment for outstanding service and self sacrifice.

And probably many other reasons I can't think of.

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Religion (emulation of adults by children) encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shall not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Sep 2011 17:02

Prepare to be lynched for mixing McDune in a Dune discussion..
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JustSomeGuy
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby JustSomeGuy » 20 Sep 2011 17:14

muddism wrote:Here's an idea that I haven't heard mentioned...(spoiler) Leto II saw what would happen with Duncan eventually. He knew that the BG would make a modified ghola, and that the tleilaxu would use all of their accumulated genes into one ghola, thus waking all of his serial memories. The knowledge and life understanding that 7,000 years of life after life made Duncan the ultimate human being. He knew that this would awaken in him the ability to see the tycheon net and would be the only real chance that humanity had to fight off the thinking machines when they returned...Leto II had perfect prescience and knew this would be required to happen. As to why it was Duncan and not someone else I think most of those reasons have been covered...

1) Leto I and Paul's love for Duncan I think was a major reason
2) His unquestioning core of loyalty
3) His antique (possibly somewhat naive) values, to keep reintroducing into the gene pool...traits that may have been bred out of humanity otherwise.
4) Repayment for outstanding service and self sacrifice.

And probably many other reasons I can't think of.


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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Nekhrun » 20 Sep 2011 23:19

muddism wrote:He knew that this would awaken in him the ability to see the tycheon net and would be the only real chance that humanity had to fight off the thinking machines when they returned...

Seriously?! Don't even bring that shit in here. :naughty:

muddism wrote:4) Repayment for outstanding service and self sacrifice.

Right, Duncan was thrilled to be brought back over and over. It's why he loved Leto so much right? :snooty:
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Sep 2011 01:26

Yeah I'm sorry that only works if you believe that what KJA and BH wrote for the finale had ANYTHING to do with what FH had planned. Which it very clearly didn't. But yes, if the not true thing were true, then your supposition about the not true thing may in fact make sense. :wink:
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Sep 2011 08:03

muddism wrote:Here's an idea that I haven't heard mentioned...(spoiler) Leto II saw what would happen with Duncan eventually...


Your premise is initially wrong because the Tleilaxu mixed in the Siona Gene so Leto couldn't have seen him (Duncan the Last). Besides that, he was in a no-ship on a planet surrounded by a moat of no-ships.

:snooty:
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 21 Sep 2011 14:15

I forgot to mention that, a major point of the Golden Path was that Leto set it up so that even he couldn't actually look into the future of humanity annd see anything specific, he could tell if humanity survived or not, but that's all.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby muddism » 22 Sep 2011 00:41

True, the BG held him in a no-ship, but the Tleilaxu held him for 9 months before they handed him over, and Leto II could have forseen what they planned to mix into his DNA. He was also on Gammu for 15 years out in the open, not in a no-ship. Leto couldn't see descendants of Siona on the Golden Path but he could see those without, and Duncan was surrounded by them, so it's feasible that he could have seen their intentions toward him.

As for what Frank had planned, I don't think it was exactly the same, but probably along similar lines...they did work from notes that he had planned to write 10 books from. I think instead of thinking machines he planned to make the evolved face dancers the outside enemy. That's just my theory you guys can hate on it all ya want. :cylon101:
Religion (emulation of adults by children) encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shall not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 22 Sep 2011 02:13

Advanced Face Dancers were DEFINITELY what FH had written Daniel and Marty to be, whether they were an enemy at all is another question. :wink:

And actually no, they did not write the books from notes that FH planned to write 10 books from, no idea where you're getting that. They claimed to have found some notes (which I believe they admitted were very short) about a possible Dune 7, a finale to the series (whether they did or did not find them is another question, but it's OBVIOUS that they did not follow them if they did find them). That is it, there was nothing beyond that except for notes from FH concerning the earlier books, absolutely nothing further or beyond a final single book, according to their own claims.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Sep 2011 08:22

They found a 2-1/2 page outline for "Dune 7", so they say and a box of character sketches and such for all the previous books.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby SandChigger » 22 Sep 2011 12:48

muddism wrote:True, the BG held him in a no-ship, but the Tleilaxu held him for 9 months before they handed him over, and Leto II could have forseen what they planned to mix into his DNA. He was also on Gammu for 15 years out in the open, not in a no-ship. Leto couldn't see descendants of Siona on the Golden Path but he could see those without, and Duncan was surrounded by them, so it's feasible that he could have seen their intentions toward him.

Except that Leto himself says that other than a few peeks beyond a certain point in time to make sure that the Golden Path endured (meeting he took a quick look to see if there was evidence of human activity), he never looked into the future in detail. Sorry, but no banana. You'll have to be content with going back and sucking off KJA's shriveled wiener.

As for what Frank had planned, I don't think it was exactly the same, but probably along similar lines...they did work from notes that he had planned to write 10 books from.

There's no intention he ever intended to write ten books. If that's what the Hack & Boob are spreading from between their bumcheeks NOW, you've just swallowed a LOAD OF SHIT.

Now go fuck off somewhere else.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 22 Sep 2011 12:51

Besides that, the Tleilaxu and Duncan had the Siona Gene, he could not see them.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Nekhrun » 22 Sep 2011 17:58

SandChigger wrote:Now go fuck off somewhere else.

Seriously, maybe we're in the middle of the big offensive from the Special Buddies' years of planning.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby SandChigger » 23 Sep 2011 07:32

All eight of them?

(Fifteen if you include Porkers #1 & #2 in the count by man-weights. :lol: )
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby muddism » 24 Sep 2011 19:48

SandChigger wrote:"Except that Leto himself says that other than a few peeks beyond a certain point in time to make sure that the Golden Path endured (meeting he took a quick look to see if there was evidence of human activity), he never looked into the future in detail. Sorry, but no banana. You'll have to be content with going back and sucking off KJA's shriveled wiener."



Leto knew that in HoD Darwi Odrade would find his hidden spice hoard, so he must have did a little more than just peeking.
Religion (emulation of adults by children) encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shall not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

War is behavior with roots in the single cell of the primeval seas. Eat whatever you touch or it will eat you.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Sep 2011 20:29

muddism wrote:
SandChigger wrote:"Except that Leto himself says that other than a few peeks beyond a certain point in time to make sure that the Golden Path endured (meeting he took a quick look to see if there was evidence of human activity), he never looked into the future in detail. Sorry, but no banana. You'll have to be content with going back and sucking off KJA's shriveled wiener."



Leto knew that in HoD Darwi Odrade would find his hidden spice hoard, so he must have did a little more than just peeking.


He didn't mention her by name, only "A REVEREND MOTHER WILL FIND THIS". He left clues only a RM could follow. And again, Odrade had the Siona Gene.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby muddism » 24 Sep 2011 20:56

lol damn I thought it did...I need to re-check it.
Religion (emulation of adults by children) encysts past mythologies: guesses, hidden assumptions of trust in the universe, pronouncements made in search of personal power, all mingled with shreds of enlightenment. And always an unspoken commandment: Thou shall not question! We break that commandment daily in the harnessing of human imagination to our deepest creativity.

War is behavior with roots in the single cell of the primeval seas. Eat whatever you touch or it will eat you.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 24 Sep 2011 23:00

"A REVEREND MOTHER WILL READ MY WORDS!"
"I BEQUEATH TO YOU MY FEAR AND LONELINESS. TO YOU I GIVE THE CERTAINTY THAT THE
BODY AND SOUL OF THE BENE GESSERIT WILL MEET THE SAME FATE AS ALL OTHER BODIES
AND ALL OTHER SOULS."
"WHAT IS SURVIVAL IF YOU DO NOT SURVIVE WHOLE? ASK THE BENE TLEILAX THAT! WHAT
IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE? MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY
CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!"
"WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY.
YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."
"MY WORDS ARE YOUR PAST,
"MY QUESTIONS ARE SIMPLE:
"WITH WHOM DO YOU ALLY?
"WITH THE SELF-IDOLATORS OF TLEILAX?
"WITH MY FISH SPEAKER BUREAUCRACY?
"WITH THE COSMOS-WANDERING GUILD?
"WITH HARKONNEN BLOOD SACRIFICERS?
"WITH A DOGMATIC SINK OF YOUR OWN CREATION?
"HOW WILL YOU MEET YOUR END?
"AS NO MORE THAN A SECRET SOCIETY?"

~HoD
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby SandChigger » 25 Sep 2011 12:11

He knew a Reverend Mother would find the hoard because of the clues he left. But he couldn't see or know the woman in question.

Go reread the ORIGINALS, amateur.

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 25 Sep 2011 13:36

Didn't I just say that? :P

Freakzilla wrote:
muddism wrote:
SandChigger wrote:"Except that Leto himself says that other than a few peeks beyond a certain point in time to make sure that the Golden Path endured (meeting he took a quick look to see if there was evidence of human activity), he never looked into the future in detail. Sorry, but no banana. You'll have to be content with going back and sucking off KJA's shriveled wiener."



Leto knew that in HoD Darwi Odrade would find his hidden spice hoard, so he must have did a little more than just peeking.


He didn't mention her by name, only "A REVEREND MOTHER WILL FIND THIS". He left clues only a RM could follow. And again, Odrade had the Siona Gene.
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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby SandChigger » 26 Sep 2011 21:38

What, you never read my comments, now you expect me to read yours? :roll: :lol:

(With one such as this, a McDune fan, you need to build in repetition, like TheKJA does, otherwise they miss it! ;) )

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Re: Why is Duncan so goddamn important?

Postby Freakzilla » 26 Sep 2011 21:42

Good points. :D
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