• Register
  • Login
  •          

    Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Image
      Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

    Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Apr 2011 15:27

    Freakzilla wrote:But Mohiam being the Emperors truthsayer could have whispered the idea in his ear and made him think it was all his idea, to get rid of a potential rogue KH and BG.



    Maybe the use of the Harkonnens was because they had written off the Atreides and planned on going with the Feyd-Rautha line.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18073
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Freakzilla » 12 Apr 2011 15:59

    Freakzilla wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:But Mohiam being the Emperors truthsayer could have whispered the idea in his ear and made him think it was all his idea, to get rid of a potential rogue KH and BG.



    Maybe the use of the Harkonnens was because they had written off the Atreides and planned on going with the Feyd-Rautha line.



    But then the "we may loose both bloodlines, now" bit doesn't make sense...
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18073
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Spicelon » 12 Apr 2011 16:49

    Wasn't there some nebulous reference in the text that maybe it was the Baron that planted the bug in Shadam's ear? We know that the Baron was definitely angling for the throne, and if he could destroy house Atreides AND shut the Landsraad pie-holes for good, then he'd be sitting pretty. Ok so yeah it probably didn't originate with the Baron, but once he got wind of Shadam's feelings on the matter, I think he saw right away how to leverage that and hasten the eventual transfer of fief.
    Poop is funny.
    MetaCugel8262 is not.
    User avatar
    Spicelon
     
    Posts: 702
    Joined: 30 Mar 2008 23:31

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby rusemec » 19 Apr 2011 20:49

    Wow, this thread is one of the reasons I wanted to join this forum.

    I believe every is well said, but I would like to provide a perspective. I believe the Emperor, the Baron, and the Duke, even Paul are examples of leaders and how they lead. The Emperor foundational power was on the fact he possessed the Sardaukar. He operated with military power and pretty much military power alone, although it was a force to be reckoned with. He had the BS and the Guild whispering in his ear and he was waffled by these forces. He knew he could not maintain power with out the Guild, BS, or consent of the Landsraad. The Emperor is our military leader and suffers the weakness of military leaders: the support of the people around them and the singularity of their focus, War. He was also the seat of Monarchical power.
    The Baron is our mad despotic ruler, like Ghanis Khan. He lives to consume others and his primary power is in his brutality. He acts in this way and uses it with Machiavellian wit. He is thrust into the plan do to his hate of the Atreides and the hope of gaining power. He is the simple and convenient tool.
    The Duke is our charismatic leader. He wields the power of his people and Landsraad loves his fair dealing and strong devotion to loyalty. With this "fairness" he attract forces which are forged by our other leaders. The Duke then begins to develop a military power, albeit small at this time. This is why I think he was a threat. He was at first only charismatic. Now he is becoming a military force. The Emperor saw the Duke as a threat, because if he had a military force equal to him, then he was more powerful because he could wield it with the consent of the Landsraad. I think this is proved by the fact that the Emperor moved him to Dune, to remove his charismatic influence away from his power base. Operating the old axiom, Never fight a shark in the water. (hehe I know that was a hare punny, sorry).

    Along the subject of leaders, this brings me to Paul. In terms of leadership, he is all leaders in one. Military power base, Economic leader (the spice must flow), Fanatical religious (Messianic), Monarchical marriage passing of power (Irulan), and brutality stored in his Jihad.

    I know this seems over simplified, leadership styles as a reason. Yet, I feel it's the one singular facet that explains why Atreides scared the s#!+ out of Emperor.
    "The fool who persists in his folly will become wise." William Blake
    "Duncan, have I not told you that when you think you know something, that is a most perfect barrier against learning?"
    User avatar
    rusemec
     
    Posts: 3
    Joined: 19 Apr 2011 09:39

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Apr 2011 08:14

    I think you're exactly right.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18073
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Freakzilla » 20 Apr 2011 08:15

    Spicelon wrote:We know that the Baron was definitely angling for the throne...


    Technically, aiming to put Feyd on the throne.
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18073
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby SandRider » 20 Apr 2011 15:35

    I'm still not completely convinced Frank didn't have a lot deeper reasons for
    the Emperor's decision to murder a rightful sitting Duke and destroy
    his entire House & Family ... reasons that either he did not flesh out, or thought
    superfluous, or figgered I'd be smart enough to figger out on my own ... which
    apparently, I ain't .... but ...

    I am warm to the stylistic idea that the Emperor, Baron, and Duke each represented
    a stereotype of leadership, and that Paul is the combination, or culmination, of all
    three ...

    and despite his avatar and strange word-drops in his posts,
    I think this New Clown may be a contender ...
    ................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
    ImageImage

    I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
    how to fully interact with people.
    ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
    User avatar
    SandRider
    Watermaster
     
    Posts: 6163
    Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
    Location: In the back of your mind. Always.

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 20 Apr 2011 15:56

    I'm still thinking that the Emperor's plan came out of good old fashioned paranoia. Was his fear of the Duke rational? Probably not, but since when do humans need a rational reason behind out behaviour?
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Sep 2011 02:28

    Leto's popularity was used as a reason why he had enemies among the Landstraad, not as a reason the Emperor was threatened by him. He can't be more popular/powerful than the Emperor who controls Attriedes wealth and authority. It's probably part of it, but not a good reason to wipe his cousin's family out. And not due to conscience, but a waste of opporunity. There'd be more opportunity in being the commander of a popular leader than in sacrificing one.

    Also, it is stated clearly that the Emperor fears the Attreides exceptional armies. I can't remember who's involved and I'm probably reaching this part in my current reread, but one character asks another outright (probably Paul asking Hawat) why the Emperor is so threatened, and that's the answer he gives. It's in there, that plain, I'm sure. I think that's the official big reason for the plot. Whatever the Emperor does to remove that threat has to be covert and absolute. The Corinnos have ruled a long time with an unmatched military and their one big fear, surely, is equal military competition, since it's surely the only thing that can, in the long-term, topple the Corrino dynasty, even if undirectly.

    Then there's the CHAOM directorship struggle. Remember all the early stockpiling by the Harkonnens and other enemies? There was a big CHAOM shake-up coming when the Attriedes were due to unavoidably screw-up spice production, per their plan. Lots of opportunity for power seizure, monopolising, and advantageous bail-out alliances. Maybe even with the Guild? (Speculating)

    I just think it was a mutually beneficial plan, and the Harkonnens, kanly enemies of the Attreides, were the obvious players to exploit for the "dirty work" as Grandpa vlad himself calls it. It's a bit like rigging a bet. Infact it's more like setting something selfish in motion and covering your tracks, having something already there to blame it on. It's genius. ;D


    That's all Dune-Universe fact, right? Plans within plans, and all that. ;D Dune-Universe statecraft is so hard to mentally encompass. Maybe if Machiavelli comes to this forum he can help.
    Streaksy
     
    Posts: 87
    Joined: 13 Sep 2011 23:13

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Sep 2011 08:17

    Thufir Hawat, his father's Master of Assassins, had explained it: their
    mortal enemies, the Harkonnens, had been on Arrakis eighty years, holding the
    planet in quasi-fief under a CHOAM Company contract to mine the geriatric spice,
    melange. Now the Harkonnens were leaving to be replaced by the House of Atreides
    in fief-complete -- an apparent victory for the Duke Leto. Yet, Hawat had said,
    this appearance contained the deadliest peril, for the Duke Leto was popular
    among the Great Houses of the Landsraad
    .
    "A popular man arouses the jealousy of the powerful," Hawat had said.

    ~Dune
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18073
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Sep 2011 16:46

    Aah!!! Shut my mouth!

    I'm looking for that part about the threat of Duke's armies (before Arrakis, nothing to do with the Fremen). Can't find it. Don't want to read ahead too much since I'm reading Dune again.
    Streaksy
     
    Posts: 87
    Joined: 13 Sep 2011 23:13

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Freakzilla » 22 Sep 2011 17:30

    "The Padishah Emperor turned against House Atreides because the Duke's
    Warmasters Gurney Halleck and Duncan Idaho had trained a fighting force -- a
    small fighting force -- to within a hair as good as the Sardaukar. Some of them
    were even better. And the Duke was in a position to enlarge his force, to make
    it every bit as strong as the Emperor's."

    ~Dune
    Image
    Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
    ~Pink Snowman
    User avatar
    Freakzilla
    Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
     
    Posts: 18073
    Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
    Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Streaksy » 22 Sep 2011 22:41

    It can't have been because of the Fremen. Wasn't the emperor oblivious to Fremen numbers? Harkonnens having to conceal the trouble they caused etc to save face... And sending the Atriedes to Dune to die because he was in a position to rally the Fremen?? If he was in a position to increase his army before he was ordered to govern Dune, it can't have been because of Fremen. Was there other mentioned reasons why he sent the Atriedes to Dune out of a different neccesity?
    Streaksy
     
    Posts: 87
    Joined: 13 Sep 2011 23:13

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 23 Sep 2011 01:03

    That quote isn't talking about the Fremen, it's talking about the elite Atreides soldiers.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Streaksy » 23 Sep 2011 18:34

    Yeh, thats what I'm assuming. ;/
    Streaksy
     
    Posts: 87
    Joined: 13 Sep 2011 23:13

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2011 01:41

    Ah, sorry, I think I interpreted your last post wrong!
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Analord » 09 Dec 2011 06:26

    Séamus wrote:One thing that has always made me scratch my head a bit, why did the Emperor consider House Atreides such a threat to his rule? I realize that there are several small explanations as to Shaddam's distrust and dislike of Leto, but nothing that seems to warrant such desperate measures. Should I just chalk it up as a character flaw in Shaddam, a necessary plot device, or am I missing something entirely. Please use kid gloves, this is my second post.


    You look too much into the basic primitive desires of humans. The emperor is a perfect example of ignorant humanity. All he cares about is his own power. So he organizes a trap for Atreidies. He does so because from his point of view, nothing extraordinary will happen and he cannot tell the future.

    He simply wanted to apply pressure to Atreidies, but in doing so, he forced Paul to become something he would not otherwise be, orphaned and angry.

    The emperor simply does what he wishes, and he dislikes the house of Atreidies, so he employs the Harkonnen to dispense them. There needs be no other reasons. Matters of the beyond elude him, that is why despite blunt warnings from both guilds ("Kill Paul Atreidies.") he fails to understand and counteract them.

    The emperor's perceptions of what's going on on Arrakis is typical business that he is used to seeing in his 200 year life, but what's actually going on is the creation of Paul Atreidies. This is not helped by the Harkonnen who help miscommunicate to the emperor that everything is swell and dandy on Dune. They are unaware of what's happening with Paul, and therefore they do not inform the Emperor of the subtext going on, only the overt text which is that house Atreidies has been crushed and scattered (which is true.)
    Analord
     
    Posts: 13
    Joined: 09 Dec 2011 06:07

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby lotek » 09 Dec 2011 07:12

    Atreides

    And
    viewforum.php?f=14

    Without a proper introduction you're just a lost wanderer in the desert, and we're the Iduali.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Analord » 09 Dec 2011 07:36

    It's a pleasure, Lotek.

    Atreides, indeed.

    I'm afraid your metaphor escapes me but it sounds like it would be very humorous. Iduali?
    Analord
     
    Posts: 13
    Joined: 09 Dec 2011 06:07

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby lotek » 09 Dec 2011 08:02

    the Cast Out, the water-stealers, where the forum got its name from.
    If they found a wanderer in the desert they'd kill him and steal his water, but if you haven't encountered them in the books yet I can't say much more without spoilers.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Analord » 09 Dec 2011 08:11

    Ah yes. That's what would have happened to Jessica and Paul if they had not 'responded' properly to the fremen attacking them?
    Analord
     
    Posts: 13
    Joined: 09 Dec 2011 06:07

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby lotek » 09 Dec 2011 08:15

    yes. There was a subtle difference with the Cast Out but same thing, spoilers.
    Spice is the worm's gonads.
    User avatar
    lotek
     
    Posts: 5734
    Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Crysknife » 09 Dec 2011 23:21

    But in the end, it doesn't matter why the emperor disliked House Atreides, it only mattered that the Fremen higher plan was in force. Which meant Paul would be there at that moment no matter what.
    Image
    User avatar
    Crysknife
     
    Posts: 593
    Joined: 09 Feb 2008 02:15
    Location: SLC, punk

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Dec 2011 05:02

    The question of why did the Emperor feel they were such a threat that he'd undertake the plan we saw in Dune isn't relevant to the plot - it's relevant to the writing itself. I think we've had a number of perfectly good explanations here.
    Image
    User avatar
    A Thing of Eternity
     
    Posts: 6090
    Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
    Location: Calgary Alberta

    Re: Why were the Atreides such a threat?

    Postby Zedwardson » 23 Dec 2011 15:22

    Also I did not see it mentioned (Sorry if I missed it), but the Atreides were left with worn out spice equipment that was about to fall apart, and between breakdowns and buying new parts, the profit of spice mining would fall, and spice mining production shortfalls would damage many great houses CHOAM profits, and that would reduce the popularity of Duke Atreides greatly.
    I hear the wind blowing across the desert and I see the moons of a winter night rising like great ships in the void.
    User avatar
    Zedwardson
     
    Posts: 10
    Joined: 23 Dec 2011 11:54

    PreviousNext

    Return to ˱

    Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

    cron