Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I checked the two books i've got handy, one might be a first edition and the other is a 1986 paperback, both exactly the same.
I'm not pitching against an error, just that there's no change in my references.

Come on, we know the books aren't without errors. (Farok's Magic Arm, yes?)

Is there a way to make sense of it if it's melange?

Any other references to concentrated solutions of melange having to be "changed" like WoL?

If not, there are two possibilities:

1. Everything we think we understand about the spice is wrong.
2. It's an error.

Total up the evidence for both sides.

(I'm fine with it being an error. )

I'm grudgingly ok with it being an error. I just hoped for another revelation.

In that, good sir, thy heart is pure.

you get point right here :

SandChigger wrote: Is there a way to make sense of it if it's melange?

Any other references to concentrated solutions of melange having to be "changed" like WoL?

If not, there are two possibilities:

1. Everything we think we understand about the spice is wrong.
2. It's an error.

We could always assert that "melange" is some generic term meaning 'derived from sandworms'. The spice melange would be the edible stuff, the liquid melange, aka water of life, would be the other thing. "Melange" always seemed to me to be a descriptor rather than a type of thing, whereas 'spice' seems like what the dried thing itself is, just as 'water' (liquid) is what the other thing is. That said, I don't know that there's a reason to get hung up on tech details about these substances. We're given terms in the books like 'spice liquor', 'spice melange', 'water of life', 'the geriatric spice.' I think the main point here is the spice cycle and its implication, and not the exact properties of each of these fictional substances. Recall that "water of life" is a currently used term to generically describe liquor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eau_de_vie" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Although in the books there is evidence that 'spice liquor' and 'changed water of life' are different things, the fact that "water of life" (linguistically) just means "liquor" seems to me to suggest that Frank wasn't that hung up about going deep into these details. Maybe the spice could be fermented into a liquor...maybe changed water of life was exported and no one was told how it was made. Who knows.

A Thing of Eternity wrote: I think the whole truth trance and truth drug thing was maybe something FH would have edited out if he'd done revisions years later, might have been one of those half-developed ideas that just didn't pan out, but the thing was already published so he just contented himself with pretty much never mentioning it again.

It's easy to forget the fact that it's a series involving a lot of drug use, in additional to mental training. In the case of the BG, the members have to train just to be able to be strong enough to withstand the more powerful drugs. It was the drugs, and not the minds alone, that opened the possibilities for things like truth trance and Navigator calculations. The 'truth drug' and other drugs were "awareness spectrum drugs", aka awareness enhancing drugs. While a RM's talents would be enough to detect 'obvious' lies, the drug would presumably raise their awareness to a level where no one could fool them, even masters of lying. The truth trance would just be the state of the RM while on the enhancing drug. This, I think, is why there seems to be an equivalence between a truthsayer and a RM: Only a RM could withstand the drug and be certain her awareness was high enough to detect every single possible lie. Think of the implications in even a small margin of error; just as drastic as a suk training not being 100% effective. Paul, himself, had a natural truthsense, but he seems to only become impervious to falsehood after taking the WoL. As Freak pointed out earlier, the truth sense seems to be a natural talent, maybe bred in. The drug enhances that talent to the point where it is infallible, if the user can survive the drug.

I'm thinking that it's Franks intention to leave many details vague, open ended, & un-pin-downable.
In a lot of ways it does improve the story, sometimes, looking as closely as we fans do, it does not.

Please add to the list of what we know;
Spice (melange) -cinnamon red- found on sand, gives the Guild enough prescience to see whether a particular path leads to destination or death.
Water of Life -unknown color- bile (puke) from a small drown worm, when changed by a RM gives people a little telepathy for a while. (and the whole RM thing)
Spice Essence -blue- spice concentrate? attempted use; harm the God Emperor
Water of Death -xxx- made by pouring unchanged WoL on a pre-spice mass, kills all spice, forever.

BTW, spice is used for everything
plastics
rugs
paper
beer (liquor)
oil (at least for lamps)
flavor (in coffee & on food)
Trippin (narcotic)
delay aging

Spice orgy.

I thought that was changed WoL?

D Pope wrote:I thought that was changed WoL?

It is.

D Pope wrote:I'm thinking that it's Franks intention to leave many details vague, open ended, & un-pin-downable.
In a lot of ways it does improve the story, sometimes, looking as closely as we fans do, it does not.

Please add to the list of what we know;
Spice (melange) -cinnamon red- found on sand, gives the Guild enough prescience to see whether a particular path leads to destination or death.
Water of Life -unknown color- bile (puke) from a small drown worm, when changed by a RM gives people a little telepathy for a while. (and the whole RM thing)
Spice Essence -blue- spice concentrate? attempted use; harm the God Emperor
Water of Death -xxx- made by pouring unchanged WoL on a pre-spice mass, kills all spice, forever.

BTW, spice is used for everything
plastics
rugs
paper
beer (liquor)
oil (at least for lamps)
flavor (in coffee & on food)
Trippin (narcotic)
delay aging

Explosives

I couldn't remember if that had been actual spice based or just something
that had been smelt (smelled?) upon entering. Thanks mate!

Paul saw that the man was enjoying the stink of this air, that there was no
irony in his tone. He heard his mother cough then, and her voice came back to
him through the press of the troop: "How rich the odors of your sietch, Stilgar.
I see you do much working with the spice . . . you make paper . . . plastics . .
. and isn't that chemical explosives?"
"You know this from what you smell?" It was another man's voice.

I took that to mean all of those product were made with spice.

Explosive beer!

D Pope wrote:Please add to the list of what we know;
Spice (melange) -cinnamon red- found on sand, gives the Guild enough prescience to see whether a particular path leads to destination or death.

The worm, tiring now, kept veering left. Leto slid down the immense slope to
set his hooks anew and keep the giant on a straight course. A soft sharpness of
melange came to his nostrils, the signal of a rich vein. They passed the leprous
blotches of violet sand where a spiceblow had erupted and he held the worm
firmly until they were well past the vein. The breeze, redolent with the gingery
odor of cinnamon, pursued them for a time until Leto rolled the worm onto its
new course, headed directly toward the rising butte.

~Children of Dune

SandChigger wrote:Good point. So why was it still so expensive then?

I know this question is 4 years old, but I'm re-reading heretics and just encountered the part you're talking about. It looks like the quote isn't referencing the current time period of Heretics, but the "worst of the old times

"The extent of the weath in this chamber had once held staggered imagination. In the worst of the old times, a hand-carried luggage case could hold enough spice to buy a planet"

My apologies if this has been discussed since this post