It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...


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D Pope
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It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by D Pope »

redbugpest wrote:While there may be some interest in discussing and debating original vs new, I do not think that the time is right to open that door again yet. I would rather spend my time (while i have some) deepening my own understanding of the original dune, and see where that leads me. I do recognize that there is a large amount of good information on this site, and since I have a strong interest to broaden my understanding of this series I will continue to come back. Also, I know that my time available is going to change again soon. I do not want to start another cycle of getting into a debate that I will be forced to walk aways from. I would rather break that cycle since it only ends up frustrating everyone involved.
Well mate, that's a tall order. The bulk of the OH crowd has feelings for Frank that boarder on, if not crossing into, the sacred. Your boys have soiled an important part of our lives and we take it personally. Having drawn the line, don't let it be said that you've not been given a shot.

Let's start with something easy. Did you know that Hayt was actually Duncans reanimated corps? It shocked me to the core when I learned this.
What insights have you gained reading the Dune books? Do you have any questions about Franks stuff?

Be advised; I'm making an earnest effort here for a real discussion. This topic really is all for the bug.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Apjak »

Anyone else find it fishy that he came back almost immediately after onasander was locked out?
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D Pope
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by D Pope »

We can poke fun and do battle all over the place, he says he wants to talk Dune- lets try it!
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by redbugpest »

D Pope wrote: Well mate, that's a tall order. The bulk of the OH crowd has feelings for Frank that boarder on, if not crossing into, the sacred. Your boys have soiled an important part of our lives and we take it personally. Having drawn the line, don't let it be said that you've not been given a shot.
I understand that, I truly do. But, I do not believe that KJH and BH approached the idea of adding to what FH left in a negative or malicious way. As disrespectful as you may find it, they are both entitled to follow their own vision for this. I think one of our differences is that I can compartmentalize this - recognizing that the original books are apart and aside form the new books - I have said it before, it's and apples and oranges thing...
D Pope wrote: Let's start with something easy. Did you know that Hayt was actually Duncans reanimated corps? It shocked me to the core when I learned this.
What insights have you gained reading the Dune books? Do you have any questions about Franks stuff?

Be advised; I'm making an earnest effort here for a real discussion. This topic really is all for the bug.
Yes, I did see that, and think it is fairly clear that the original Duncan-Ghola (Hyat) was a reanimation of the repaired body of the damaged Duncan. There is a lot time spent discussing the salvage of his original body, the rush to preserve it, and the deposit of it in the Axotol tanks.

Insights is a little more difficult to pin down, because I think my insights change and adjust on each subsequent reading. Of course, I see the obvious - Dangers of a conformist and stagnated society, need for innovation and change both personally and as a society, the dangers of organized religion (not faith), implementations of messing with ecology when you do not fully understand the ramifications - just off the top of my head...

I think there are some insights into leadership and change management as well, but need to really sit down and read it with that as my focus so I can really nail down how I think it applies.

Questions will be of a more organic nature - I will read something here or in the books, and will post about it, like I did with the Jowf reference, and in the pearls thread.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by D Pope »

Redbug wrote:But, I do not believe that KJH and BH approached the idea of adding to what FH left in a negative or malicious way. As disrespectful as you may find it, they are both entitled to follow their own vision for this. I think one of our differences is that I can compartmentalize this - recognizing that the original books are apart and aside form the new books - I have said it before, it's and apples and oranges thing...
It's all been said before, moving on.
Redbug wrote:Insights is a little more difficult to pin down, because I think my insights change and adjust on each subsequent reading. Of course, I see the obvious - Dangers of a conformist and stagnated society, need for innovation and change both personally and as a society, the dangers of organized religion (not faith), implementations of messing with ecology when you do not fully understand the ramifications - just off the top of my head...

I think there are some insights into leadership and change management as well, but need to really sit down and read it with that as my focus so I can really nail down how I think it applies.
I was looking for things a little more personal but for broader, political views, I think the "purpose of government is to maintain the level of individuals" quote most personifies the real genius FH shared with the world.
Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Sandwurm88 »

Wow, this hasn't been done before...

But, redbugpest, I would like to challenge you to a one-on-one debate on any topic you wish!!!
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by SandRider »

I think one of our differences is that I can compartmentalize this - recognizing that the original books are apart and aside form the new books - I have said it before, it's and apples and oranges thing...
and that's not the Official Corporate Dune line ... that's not what tehKJA says ...
and push that point too hard on the Official Corporate Dune Forum and Merritt will ban you ....

are you understanding this point yet ?
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Kojiro »

redbugpest wrote:KJH
God I hope that's an abbreviation for Kevin J. Hackerson.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Nekhrun »

Sandwurm88 wrote:Wow, this hasn't been done before...

But, redbugpest, I would like to challenge you to a one-on-one debate on any topic you wish!!!
This reminds me of Chani taking on Paul's challengers because they're not worthy.

You go get him Sandwurm88. Way to take the initiative. You just went up a notch.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by SandChigger »

Hey, Eyes! This probably could go in your dreams thread, too. ;)

I went upstairs and had a lay-down for a few hours and I dreamt I came home and found this nasty-assed-looking green gator in my living room.

"What kind of fuckery is this?!" I said, and the gator replied, "I can compartmentalize."

Isn't it weird how sometimes things work themselves out in your dreams?
redbugpest wrote:I can compartmentalize this - recognizing that the original books are apart and aside form the new books - I have said it before, it's and apples and oranges thing...
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thank you! The admission that you perform the mental gymnastics to "compartmentalize" the two, that they are very different critters, tickles me more than you can imagine. (Almost as much as finding your mugshot on Facebook!) :lol:
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Eyes High »

Come on guys, he's admitted that the new books are different from Frank's. I think that's a big step. That's more than KJA will admit.

Red has come back here without the chip on his shoulder, let's give him chance.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by SandChigger »

Oh, I'm more than happy to bury the hatchet. :twisted:


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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Eyes High »

:roll:

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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Nekhrun wrote:
Sandwurm88 wrote:Wow, this hasn't been done before...

But, redbugpest, I would like to challenge you to a one-on-one debate on any topic you wish!!!
This reminds me of Chani taking on Paul's challengers because they're not worthy.

You go get him Sandwurm88. Way to take the initiative. You just went up a notch.
Nekhrun, this has to be the best compliment I've ever gotten on these forums! To be compared to Muad'dib in his early glory... almost brings a tear to my eye!
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Eyes High wrote:Come on guys, he's admitted that the new books are different from Frank's. I think that's a big step. That's more than KJA will admit.

Red has come back here without the chip on his shoulder, let's give him chance.
Oh I don't know, it's still there - he's just adding actual discussion on top of showing up to annoy people. A good step though.

I really don't have a problem with people liking KJA's stuff. Every now and again, very rarely, I go to McDonalds and get a fish sandwich. The fish is mystery fish, overcooked and dried out, the tartar sauce is just mayo and relish, the cheese... well the term cheese is very loosly used here, and the bread is bleached flour that's only flavour is carbohydrate. It's truly garbage, but it amuses me to eat once in a while between when I make home-brewed stout battered trout with fresh tartar sauce made with capers, hand minced dill pickles, raw apple cider vinegar, sea salt, fresh cracked black pepper...


... well, you get my point. Does that fish burger diminish proper battered fish fare? Yes. Is it an insult to real cooking? Yes. Will the masses blindly eat it thinking it's better than it is? Yes.


I'll eat it once in a while, but I won't pretend it's not shit. People who read, and yes even enjoy KJA's work should have the decency to do the same.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by merkin muffley »

SandChigger wrote:Oh, I'm more than happy to bury the hatchet. :twisted:


(Hey, merk! Fire up the barbecue! :lol: )
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He got a real pretty mouth.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by SadisticCynic »

merkin muffley wrote:
SandChigger wrote:Oh, I'm more than happy to bury the hatchet. :twisted:


(Hey, merk! Fire up the barbecue! :lol: )
:obscene-sexualvlick:
He got a real pretty mouth.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by redbugpest »

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Eyes High wrote:Come on guys, he's admitted that the new books are different from Frank's. I think that's a big step. That's more than KJA will admit.

Red has come back here without the chip on his shoulder, let's give him chance.
Oh I don't know, it's still there - he's just adding actual discussion on top of showing up to annoy people. A good step though.
Actually, outside of the pic posting in the threads that SC resurrected, I have not been out to purposely annoy anyone. If it is my views that are annoying people, well, they are my views until such time as I find an reason to revise them..
A Thing of Eternity wrote: I really don't have a problem with people liking KJA's stuff. Every now and again, very rarely, I go to McDonalds and get a fish sandwich. The fish is mystery fish, overcooked and dried out, the tartar sauce is just mayo and relish, the cheese... well the term cheese is very loosly used here, and the bread is bleached flour that's only flavour is carbohydrate. It's truly garbage, but it amuses me to eat once in a while between when I make home-brewed stout battered trout with fresh tartar sauce made with capers, hand minced dill pickles, raw apple cider vinegar, sea salt, fresh cracked black pepper...


... well, you get my point. Does that fish burger diminish proper battered fish fare? Yes. Is it an insult to real cooking? Yes. Will the masses blindly eat it thinking it's better than it is? Yes.
Both are still fish, and just because McDonalds serves them, it does not diminish my enjoyment of a nice piece of Miso Marinated Striped Bass at my favorite five star restaurant.
A Thing of Eternity wrote: I'll eat it once in a while, but I won't pretend it's not shit. People who read, and yes even enjoy KJA's work should have the decency to do the same.
If it brought you no enjoyment to eat it, even once in a while, they would you still buy them? If it made you ill, would you buy it? No, neither would most people.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by TheDukester »

redbugpest wrote:Both are still fish ...
Brian, this right here is the part you and your mindless preek buddies just don't get.

I'm going to go slow for you:

1. They are not both "still fish" ... that's sort of the whole point.

2. Taking that example and applying it to the world of literature ...

3. ... Kevin J. Anderpussy's McDune is NOT Dune.

Do you see what I did there? With taking the one example and applying it to a second category?

Your loverboy Anderson can call it "Dune" all he wants. The idiots at the HLP can put "Dune" on the covers all they want. But his talent-free fanfic doesn't come within 1,000 miles of being actual Dune. That's like saying a $5 watch from China and a Cray supercomputer are the same, since both display numbers.

What part of all this is so hard for you to get?
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

redbugpest wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote: I really don't have a problem with people liking KJA's stuff. Every now and again, very rarely, I go to McDonalds and get a fish sandwich. The fish is mystery fish, overcooked and dried out, the tartar sauce is just mayo and relish, the cheese... well the term cheese is very loosly used here, and the bread is bleached flour that's only flavour is carbohydrate. It's truly garbage, but it amuses me to eat once in a while between when I make home-brewed stout battered trout with fresh tartar sauce made with capers, hand minced dill pickles, raw apple cider vinegar, sea salt, fresh cracked black pepper...


... well, you get my point. Does that fish burger diminish proper battered fish fare? Yes. Is it an insult to real cooking? Yes. Will the masses blindly eat it thinking it's better than it is? Yes.
Both are still fish, and just because McDonalds serves them, it does not diminish my enjoyment of a nice piece of Miso Marinated Striped Bass at my favorite five star restaurant.


Like Duke said you've missed my point. They are both fish, just like McDune and Dune are both books. One of them is something amazing that had a lot of thought put into it and one of them is dumbed down for the masses. Both fish yes, both fine food? NO. And yes, taste is largely subjective, but nutrition isn't. One of those adds nothing but poisons sugars and fats into your system, one of them will help your body become healthier.

Does that make my analogy clearer?
A Thing of Eternity wrote: I'll eat it once in a while, but I won't pretend it's not shit. People who read, and yes even enjoy KJA's work should have the decency to do the same.
If it brought you no enjoyment to eat it, even once in a while, they would you still buy them? If it made you ill, would you buy it? No, neither would most people.
And this is the main point that you missed. People will eat McDonalds, but they will not tell you it's fine fare with subtleties and original ideas, nor that it has any nutritional value.

I'm ok with people reading junk too, but have the honesty to admit that it is in fact junk. Maybe enjoyable in a "turn your brain off and enjoy the lasers" kinda way for some people, but it offers no real deep thought, or planning on the scale that a serious work of fiction would have.

Here's one more final point that might make my view clearer to you. McDonalds is fine and appropriate when you get it at McDonalds, because you get what you expect, and that is what their business is, serving up junkfood. How would you feel if that favourite 5 star restaurant of yours served you the exact same thing?

THIS IS THE POINT. If KJA were just writing his own books, or writing in a pulp/young adult franchise it would be appropriate to serve up his level of writing. When he goes to work in the 5 star restaurant that is Dune and continues to serve up that same low quality - it becomes inappropriate and dissapointing, and yes even an insult to the restaurant.

I can't make it much clearer than that.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by Freakzilla »

If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.
This is the analogy that just keeps giving! :lol: Good point as well.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by redbugpest »

TheDukester wrote:
redbugpest wrote:Both are still fish ...
Brian, this right here is the part you and your mindless preek buddies just don't get.

I'm going to go slow for you:

1. They are not both "still fish" ... that's sort of the whole point.

2. Taking that example and applying it to the world of literature ...

3. ... Kevin J. Anderpussy's McDune is NOT Dune.

Do you see what I did there? With taking the one example and applying it to a second category?

Your loverboy Anderson can call it "Dune" all he wants. The idiots at the HLP can put "Dune" on the covers all they want. But his talent-free fanfic doesn't come within 1,000 miles of being actual Dune. That's like saying a $5 watch from China and a Cray supercomputer are the same, since both display numbers.

What part of all this is so hard for you to get?
1. Yes, they are both still fish, even if you do not like the idea or not.
2. The original comparison was made by A Thing of Eternity, and mine was in response. it is a valid comparison meant to illustrate a point about differences.
3. That is the chip on YOUR shoulder talking....Try loosing it.
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by redbugpest »

Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.
But would you keep going back every time they offer a new variety to try it? Especially when you have the recipe, and can enjoy the original any time you want?
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Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

Post by A Thing of Eternity »

:lol: I gather you agree with my last post then?
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