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    It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby Sev » 15 Oct 2010 15:11

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:THIS IS THE POINT. If KJA were just writing his own books, or writing in a pulp/young adult franchise it would be appropriate to serve up his level of writing. When he goes to work in the 5 star restaurant that is Dune and continues to serve up that same low quality - it becomes inappropriate and dissapointing, and yes even an insult to the restaurant.

    I can't make it much clearer than that.


    Wish I'd written that - brilliant stuff AToE.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby Freakzilla » 15 Oct 2010 15:12

    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.


    But would you keep going back every time they offer a new variety to try it? Especially when you have the recipe, and can enjoy the original any time you want?


    Actually, what they did was say I had to buy and eat six shity immitation FoF sandwiches BEFORE I COULD UNDERSTAND the NEW FoF based on the old recipe. What kind of hogwash is that? I have to hand it to them, though. I fell for it.

    I can't enjoy the original any time I want, I can only try to remember what it used to taste like.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby Tleszer » 15 Oct 2010 15:21

    :clap: :clap: :clap:

    I still can't believe you guys are still have this conversation. It's like talking to a brick wall...
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 15:22

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I really don't have a problem with people liking KJA's stuff. Every now and again, very rarely, I go to McDonalds and get a fish sandwich. The fish is mystery fish, overcooked and dried out, the tartar sauce is just mayo and relish, the cheese... well the term cheese is very loosly used here, and the bread is bleached flour that's only flavour is carbohydrate. It's truly garbage, but it amuses me to eat once in a while between when I make home-brewed stout battered trout with fresh tartar sauce made with capers, hand minced dill pickles, raw apple cider vinegar, sea salt, fresh cracked black pepper...


    ... well, you get my point. Does that fish burger diminish proper battered fish fare? Yes. Is it an insult to real cooking? Yes. Will the masses blindly eat it thinking it's better than it is? Yes.


    Both are still fish, and just because McDonalds serves them, it does not diminish my enjoyment of a nice piece of Miso Marinated Striped Bass at my favorite five star restaurant.


    Like Duke said you've missed my point. They are both fish, just like McDune and Dune are both books. One of them is something amazing that had a lot of thought put into it and one of them is dumbed down for the masses. Both fish yes, both fine food? NO. And yes, taste is largely subjective, but nutrition isn't. One of those adds nothing but poisons sugars and fats into your system, one of them will help your body become healthier.

    Does that make my analogy clearer?

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I'll eat it once in a while, but I won't pretend it's not shit. People who read, and yes even enjoy KJA's work should have the decency to do the same.


    If it brought you no enjoyment to eat it, even once in a while, they would you still buy them? If it made you ill, would you buy it? No, neither would most people.


    And this is the main point that you missed. People will eat McDonalds, but they will not tell you it's fine fare with subtleties and original ideas, nor that it has any nutritional value.

    I'm ok with people reading junk too, but have the honesty to admit that it is in fact junk. Maybe enjoyable in a "turn your brain off and enjoy the lasers" kinda way for some people, but it offers no real deep thought, or planning on the scale that a serious work of fiction would have.

    Here's one more final point that might make my view clearer to you. McDonalds is fine and appropriate when you get it at McDonalds, because you get what you expect, and that is what their business is, serving up junkfood. How would you feel if that favourite 5 star restaurant of yours served you the exact same thing?


    I'd be mad as hell - the first time. I would know it is being made by a different chef, and would not dine on anything being served up by that chef no matter what it is called.

    Again, it is an apples and oranges thing - I know, when I reach for a Dune book, that if it says Frank Herbert on the spine I will get one thing and if it says Brian Herbert and Keven J. Anderson I will be getting something different. Same with Star Wars - I remember when the first of the add ons for that series came out - Splinter of the Minds Eye by Allan Dean Foster - was way different from the original stories, as was the first one I saw by Timothy Zhan. They all boldly say Star Wars on the cover, but I know that it is not the origional....

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:THIS IS THE POINT. If KJA were just writing his own books, or writing in a pulp/young adult franchise it would be appropriate to serve up his level of writing. When he goes to work in the 5 star restaurant that is Dune and continues to serve up that same low quality - it becomes inappropriate and dissapointing, and yes even an insult to the restaurant.

    I can't make it much clearer than that.


    But no one is going to make you order anything you do not want... :)
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Oct 2010 15:27

    redbugpest wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I really don't have a problem with people liking KJA's stuff. Every now and again, very rarely, I go to McDonalds and get a fish sandwich. The fish is mystery fish, overcooked and dried out, the tartar sauce is just mayo and relish, the cheese... well the term cheese is very loosly used here, and the bread is bleached flour that's only flavour is carbohydrate. It's truly garbage, but it amuses me to eat once in a while between when I make home-brewed stout battered trout with fresh tartar sauce made with capers, hand minced dill pickles, raw apple cider vinegar, sea salt, fresh cracked black pepper...


    ... well, you get my point. Does that fish burger diminish proper battered fish fare? Yes. Is it an insult to real cooking? Yes. Will the masses blindly eat it thinking it's better than it is? Yes.


    Both are still fish, and just because McDonalds serves them, it does not diminish my enjoyment of a nice piece of Miso Marinated Striped Bass at my favorite five star restaurant.


    Like Duke said you've missed my point. They are both fish, just like McDune and Dune are both books. One of them is something amazing that had a lot of thought put into it and one of them is dumbed down for the masses. Both fish yes, both fine food? NO. And yes, taste is largely subjective, but nutrition isn't. One of those adds nothing but poisons sugars and fats into your system, one of them will help your body become healthier.

    Does that make my analogy clearer?

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I'll eat it once in a while, but I won't pretend it's not shit. People who read, and yes even enjoy KJA's work should have the decency to do the same.


    If it brought you no enjoyment to eat it, even once in a while, they would you still buy them? If it made you ill, would you buy it? No, neither would most people.


    And this is the main point that you missed. People will eat McDonalds, but they will not tell you it's fine fare with subtleties and original ideas, nor that it has any nutritional value.

    I'm ok with people reading junk too, but have the honesty to admit that it is in fact junk. Maybe enjoyable in a "turn your brain off and enjoy the lasers" kinda way for some people, but it offers no real deep thought, or planning on the scale that a serious work of fiction would have.

    Here's one more final point that might make my view clearer to you. McDonalds is fine and appropriate when you get it at McDonalds, because you get what you expect, and that is what their business is, serving up junkfood. How would you feel if that favourite 5 star restaurant of yours served you the exact same thing?


    I'd be mad as hell - the first time. I would know it is being made by a different chef, and would not dine on anything being served up by that chef no matter what it is called.

    Again, it is an apples and oranges thing - I know, when I reach for a Dune book, that if it says Frank Herbert on the spine I will get one thing and if it says Brian Herbert and Keven J. Anderson I will be getting something different. Same with Star Wars - I remember when the first of the add ons for that series came out - Splinter of the Minds Eye by Allan Dean Foster - was way different from the original stories, as was the first one I saw by Timothy Zhan. They all boldly say Star Wars on the cover, but I know that it is not the origional....

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:THIS IS THE POINT. If KJA were just writing his own books, or writing in a pulp/young adult franchise it would be appropriate to serve up his level of writing. When he goes to work in the 5 star restaurant that is Dune and continues to serve up that same low quality - it becomes inappropriate and dissapointing, and yes even an insult to the restaurant.

    I can't make it much clearer than that.


    But no one is going to make you order anything you do not want... :)


    So, essentially you agree that KJA's stuff is like McDonalds in a fine dining restaurant? No I don't have to eat it again, and I personallly have stopped eating it, but I have to go on now with people thinking and saying often that the McDonalds is perfectly fine in that restaurant, totally worthy, even that it's good.

    People who are new to that restaurant will now always see it with the junk as well as the good. And unfortunately, once you've eaten the junk every time you eat the good stuff it just doesn't taste as good, because the taste of junk is still in your mouth.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby TheDukester » 15 Oct 2010 15:28

    redbugpest wrote:Try loosing it.

    Try fucking off.

    It's clear you'll never get what we're trying to say here. Why? You don't have the intelligence. As much as we make fun of this fact, it is absolutely true: Kevin J. Anderson's fans are not smart people. And the more vocal the fan, the less the intelligence.

    So I pretty much give up. You are simply not worth the effort. The McDune books are perfect for you, and they're written exactly to your level, so you just go right on ahead and keep enjoying them. I'd recommend avoiding the Dune series by Frank Herbert, though; that's pretty much out of your league.

    Also, Brian? The word is spelled "lose."

    "Lose" is the opposite of "win."

    "Loose" is what happens to shoelaces.

    They are two distinct words with different meanings.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 15:29

    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.


    But would you keep going back every time they offer a new variety to try it? Especially when you have the recipe, and can enjoy the original any time you want?


    Actually, what they did was say I had to buy and eat six shity immitation FoF sandwiches BEFORE I COULD UNDERSTAND the NEW FoF based on the old recipe. What kind of hogwash is that? I have to hand it to them, though. I fell for it.

    I can't enjoy the original any time I want, I can only try to remember what it used to taste like.


    No they did not say you had to buy them - that was a choice you made.... It is Mc Donalds job to make it as attractive as possible - no one has control of how long it takes you as the consumer to realize you do not like it. But do not mistake that to mean that I do not understand why you were disappointed. I guess i had lower expectations going in. I never expected any of the books to read the same as FH.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Oct 2010 15:31

    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.


    But would you keep going back every time they offer a new variety to try it? Especially when you have the recipe, and can enjoy the original any time you want?


    Actually, what they did was say I had to buy and eat six shity immitation FoF sandwiches BEFORE I COULD UNDERSTAND the NEW FoF based on the old recipe. What kind of hogwash is that? I have to hand it to them, though. I fell for it.

    I can't enjoy the original any time I want, I can only try to remember what it used to taste like.


    No they did not say you had to buy them - that was a choice you made.... It is Mc Donalds job to make it as attractive as possible - no one has control of how long it takes you as the consumer to realize you do not like it. But do not mistake that to mean that I do not understand why you were disappointed. I guess i had lower expectations going in. I never expected any of the books to read the same as FH.


    Someone who hadn't read the Legends series would be completely lost in Hunters and Sandworms. We've actually had people join up over at DN who went straight into those "Dune 7" books without knowing anything about KJABH and were utterly confused and shocked by what they found.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 15:38

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.


    But would you keep going back every time they offer a new variety to try it? Especially when you have the recipe, and can enjoy the original any time you want?


    Actually, what they did was say I had to buy and eat six shity immitation FoF sandwiches BEFORE I COULD UNDERSTAND the NEW FoF based on the old recipe. What kind of hogwash is that? I have to hand it to them, though. I fell for it.

    I can't enjoy the original any time I want, I can only try to remember what it used to taste like.


    No they did not say you had to buy them - that was a choice you made.... It is Mc Donalds job to make it as attractive as possible - no one has control of how long it takes you as the consumer to realize you do not like it. But do not mistake that to mean that I do not understand why you were disappointed. I guess i had lower expectations going in. I never expected any of the books to read the same as FH.


    I can understand why, but even if another author wrote them all, you would probably have the same issue. You cant read "Foundation and Earth" and really know who Daniel is, The significance of the Solarians, or who Giskard is... Even if you have read all of the core Foundation books...

    Someone who hadn't read the Legends series would be completely lost in Hunters and Sandworms. We've actually had people join up over at DN who went straight into those "Dune 7" books without knowing anything about KJABH and were utterly confused and shocked by what they found.


    I can understand why, but even if another author wrote them all, you would probably have the same issue. You cant read "Foundation and Earth" and really know who Daniel is, The significance of the Solarians, or who Giskard is... Even if you have read all of the core Foundation books...
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 15:40

    So for the time being, this line of discussion needs to be set aside, since both sides are still far apart. I just want to deal with FH's Dune for now.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby Tleszer » 15 Oct 2010 15:51

    redbugpest wrote:No they did not say you had to buy them - that was a choice you made....


    Are you just incredibly dense, rbp?

    Actaully, KJA and BH said that they were writing The Butlerian Jihad novels precisely because "what FH intended to write for Dune 7" would have been too confusing. The novels were written to make things "simpler" for FH's conclusion (ie:READ THE BJ NOVELS AND YOU'LL UNDERSTAND DUNE 7)

    Of course, they changed Marty and Daniel (evolved facedancers) and made them robots from the jihad. This was inconsistent with the originals. Not only that, but Marty and Daniel were made to be Omnius and Erasmus, who were creations of KJA and BH. The only reason to read the BJ novels was for this tiny snippet. In essence, we were told to read a group of three books in order to read and understand another two. So, for anyone interested in the conclusion to FH's series they are "required" to read 5 shitty books.

    Also, it's more than just if another author is writing in someone else universe. A new author can expand the universe and add to it, but he can't change and contradict that universe to suit his own whims.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby lotek » 15 Oct 2010 15:58

    redbugpest wrote:No they did not say you had to buy them - that was a choice you made.... It is Mc Donalds job to make it as attractive as possible - no one has control of how long it takes you as the consumer to realize you do not like it. But do not mistake that to mean that I do not understand why you were disappointed. I guess i had lower expectations going in. I never expected any of the books to read the same as FH.


    that's when I lose(loose)you.
    I expected that exactly, anything less should never have seen the light when tehKJH pulled it out of his arse like a steaming turd.

    If you like being fed shit good for you.
    Shame it doesn't work like flies, if they didn't eat it we'd swim in it!
    Here it's the opposite, the more flies come attracted by the smell the more the other arsemouth gobbles up in his dictahikes(if they exist)

    Dune is a masterpiece and tackling it should have been done with respect and humility, both qualities seriously lacking in Keith.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Oct 2010 16:05

    redbugpest wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:
    redbugpest wrote:
    Freakzilla wrote:If McDonalds tells me they have a new Filet-O-Fish sandwich (after not selling any for twenty years) and it's based on the old FoF recipe WHICH I LOVED, I'm going to complain if it tastes like shit. In fact, I'm going to ask for my money back. I'm also going to tell everyone I know not to go there.


    But would you keep going back every time they offer a new variety to try it? Especially when you have the recipe, and can enjoy the original any time you want?


    Actually, what they did was say I had to buy and eat six shity immitation FoF sandwiches BEFORE I COULD UNDERSTAND the NEW FoF based on the old recipe. What kind of hogwash is that? I have to hand it to them, though. I fell for it.

    I can't enjoy the original any time I want, I can only try to remember what it used to taste like.


    No they did not say you had to buy them - that was a choice you made.... It is Mc Donalds job to make it as attractive as possible - no one has control of how long it takes you as the consumer to realize you do not like it. But do not mistake that to mean that I do not understand why you were disappointed. I guess i had lower expectations going in. I never expected any of the books to read the same as FH.


    I can understand why, but even if another author wrote them all, you would probably have the same issue. You cant read "Foundation and Earth" and really know who Daniel is, The significance of the Solarians, or who Giskard is... Even if you have read all of the core Foundation books...

    Someone who hadn't read the Legends series would be completely lost in Hunters and Sandworms. We've actually had people join up over at DN who went straight into those "Dune 7" books without knowing anything about KJABH and were utterly confused and shocked by what they found.


    I can understand why, but even if another author wrote them all, you would probably have the same issue. You cant read "Foundation and Earth" and really know who Daniel is, The significance of the Solarians, or who Giskard is... Even if you have read all of the core Foundation books...


    Or, another author would have written something that actually worked with the originals. Just because thoe two chose to write something that had no grounding in the original series and as such needed an entire other series to explain doesn't mean that a bteer author would have done the same.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby TheDukester » 15 Oct 2010 16:08

    redbugpest wrote:So for the time being, this line of discussion needs to be set aside ...

    We'll be sure to let you know when you get to decide what is and isn't discussed here.

    I'm guessing it'll be around the 12th of Never.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Oct 2010 16:14

    redbugpest wrote:So for the time being, this line of discussion needs to be set aside, since both sides are still far apart. I just want to deal with FH's Dune for now.


    You think the sides will ever be closer? Unlikely, the KJABH stuff isn't going to magically become quality fiction any time soon. Just because I can't explain something to someone sure doesn't mean I should stop trying.

    If you want to bow out of defending KJA for now that's a different issue. Feel free to discuss the real Dune here as much as you like, some people will respond on topic, and some people are permanently set against you because of the first (and second, third, fourth, etc) impression you gave. You'll have to accept the flames from those people knowing that you made the bed and are now lying in it.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby TheDukester » 15 Oct 2010 16:25

    Tleszer wrote:A new author can expand the universe and add to it, but he can't change and contradict that universe to suit his own whims.

    Brian doesn't get this part, sadly.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 16:33

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:
    If you want to bow out of defending KJA for now that's a different issue. Feel free to discuss the real Dune here as much as you like, some people will respond on topic, and some people are permanently set against you because of the first (and second, third, fourth, etc) impression you gave. You'll have to accept the flames from those people knowing that you made the bed and are now lying in it.


    And that is what I have already said I wanted to do. As for the few who plan on doing nothing but flaming, well, that is what the Foe function is for....
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby merkin muffley » 15 Oct 2010 16:50

    redbugpest wrote:So for the time being, this line of discussion needs to be set aside, since both sides are still far apart. I just want to deal with FH's Dune for now.


    Didn't work out for you over at Dunenovels?
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby TheDukester » 15 Oct 2010 16:51

    merkin muffley wrote:Didn't work out for you over at Dunenovels?

    Maybe he got run over by a tumbleweed ...
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby merkin muffley » 15 Oct 2010 18:14

    SadisticCynic wrote:
    merkin muffley wrote:
    SandChigger wrote:Oh, I'm more than happy to bury the hatchet. :twisted:


    (Hey, merk! Fire up the barbecue! :lol: )


    :obscene-sexualvlick:
    He got a real pretty mouth.


    Squeal like a pig, boy! Wheeeeeeee!




    Well, sheeeit, looks like I'm actually going to West Virginia for the weekend. I look forward to seeing you down there, Brian, but if I don't I'm sure you'll still be telling people they don't have the right to argue that Kevin J. Anderson's writing is shitty, as well as complaining that nobody around here wants to debate. I can't wait to get back.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby Nekhrun » 15 Oct 2010 18:19

    Well I guess that's it then. Red Bug agrees that McDune isn't Dune. At this point I don't give a shit if he still likes them. Too many of those nacnud sucking Special Peoples think that they're equal; I wonder if they're going to kick him out of their little group now.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Oct 2010 18:29

    Yeah, but he keeps just saying they're "different" - they aren't "different" they're vastly inferior and don't belong under the same name as literary classics.
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby D Pope » 15 Oct 2010 19:48

    What is it you're after redbug?
    You've had your chance to talk about Dune, that's what you said you wanted. Despite all the needling that you had to expect when you came here, an authentic attempt would've succeeded. I gave you a real shot at being human and you followed the same old 'my right to like what I want' pretard program.

    If you really want to do something real, just tell us what you came here for. I mean what you really came here for. Don't even attempt to stick to your learning about Dune lie, you may ask yourself if it's possible for me to know it's a lie- i'm telling you now, I know it is.

    I've seen your file dipshit.
    Leto II is gone for good, except for OM. The "pearl" was just that; a miniscule portion of what Leto was, and not a compressed version of the whole. The pearl that the worms have do not make them Leto, or in any way similar to him.
    -Omphalos
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby redbugpest » 15 Oct 2010 21:59

    D Pope wrote:What is it you're after redbug?
    You've had your chance to talk about Dune, that's what you said you wanted. Despite all the needling that you had to expect when you came here, an authentic attempt would've succeeded. I gave you a real shot at being human and you followed the same old 'my right to like what I want' pretard program.

    If you really want to do something real, just tell us what you came here for. I mean what you really came here for. Don't even attempt to stick to your learning about Dune lie, you may ask yourself if it's possible for me to know it's a lie- i'm telling you now, I know it is.

    I've seen your file dipshit.


    I am sorry if there are people that may be trying to convince you otherwise, but I am, in fact, just wanting to broaden an deepen my knowledge of the FH Dune books.

    I knew there would be attempts to draw me back into the same old arguments, and I am working on getting people to understand that it is not on my agenda.

    If you look, I have been trying to participate in the perils forum, because I have a genuine intreats in the things being discussed there, and started a thread on another point of interest from CoD.

    All the other retoric about new vs old I have tried to gracefully bow out of, reminding people that I do not think it is the right time for this discussion.

    I would be interested in knowing what this file on me that you referred to is.

    If you still do not believe what I am saying, I would ask that you just sit back and watch because there is no hidden agenda, and you will see that for yourself over time.

    Regards,

    RBP
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    Re: It's all about the bug, Red bug that is...

    Postby Kojiro » 15 Oct 2010 22:04

    redbugpest wrote:but I am, in fact, just wanting to broaden an deepen my knowledge of the FH Dune books.


    Step one, toss out the McDune books. Anything you'll read in them will be irrevocably wrong.

    Admitting that you have a problem is the first step to seeking help.
    Has not religion claimed a patent on creation for all of these millennia?
    -The Tleilaxu Question,
    from Muad'dib Speaks
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