Upon further thought...

Image
    Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

Moderators: ᴶᵛᵀᴬ, Omphalos, Freakzilla

User avatar
Superdog
Posts: 150
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 23:09

Upon further thought...

Postby Superdog » 30 Sep 2010 16:23

...it occurred to me that Messiah might be favorite Dune novel. It's probably the hardest to fully understand but the most rewarding once you've got it under your belt.

User avatar
TheDukester
Posts: 3808
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
Location: Operation Enduring Bacon
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby TheDukester » 30 Sep 2010 16:50

I heart Messiah — it's my favorite in the "Not Dune, Which Gets Its Own Category Since It Started the Whole Thing" division.
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

User avatar
Tleszer
Posts: 2161
Joined: 17 Feb 2008 18:02

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Tleszer » 30 Sep 2010 17:17

Messiah has been my favorite for a while, but God Emperor is almost tied with it.
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 30 Sep 2010 18:29

What I like about Messiah is that it's the book that makes one of the central points of Dune, the dangers of being too centralized and following Heroes. Dune on it's own really doesn't do this, and CoD doesn't add to it other than with the Preacher.

Apparently some people were confused by Paul's downfall though... :roll:
Image

User avatar
lotek
Posts: 5735
Joined: 28 Jul 2009 08:33

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby lotek » 01 Oct 2010 06:40

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Apparently some people were confused by Paul's downfall though... :roll:


which makes even more interesting, as it goes against your deep ingrained instinct to look for a ultra-hero that'll save the day without doubting his destiny.

How people can moan about that instead of admiring the artistic courage it takes to cripple your all-powerful hero? Beats me...
Spice is the worm's gonads.

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby merkin muffley » 01 Oct 2010 10:56

I love Dune Messiah.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
Ash
Posts: 14
Joined: 21 Aug 2009 13:13
Location: Gatlin, Nebraska

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Ash » 01 Oct 2010 14:02

One of the best books in the series.
"Dune can be read on so many different levels. I really get different things out of it every time I read it. You can read it as just a plain old space adventure story, people being stranded on a desert planet that has giant sandworms on it, but you can also read it and get politics and economics out of it."
Kevin J. Anderson

User avatar
Apjak
Posts: 518
Joined: 30 Jun 2008 12:06
Location: Kansas City

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Apjak » 01 Oct 2010 14:21

I'm still leaning toward GEoD as my favorite (Leto II is still the most fascinating character in fiction), but from a technical standpoint DM is probably the best paced. I feel that Frank probably had DM on the drawing board the longest, and it got the most fat cut off. Of course he balked at the idea of giving the fans anything less than as much as he could possibly muster, and therefore, we get a labor of love left turn instead of a "SUPERCHARGE EVERYTHING" Hollywood type sequel.
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert

User avatar
Robspierre
Posts: 2160
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 10:49
Location: Cascadia

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Robspierre » 01 Oct 2010 23:01

Tleszer wrote:Messiah has been my favorite for a while, but God Emperor is almost tied with it.



I'm the same way. Messiah is where the Dune Sage truly blossoms.

Rob

User avatar
Hunchback Jack
Posts: 1982
Joined: 30 May 2008 15:02
Location: California, USA

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Hunchback Jack » 06 Oct 2010 03:09

A Thing of Eternity wrote:What I like about Messiah is that it's the book that makes one of the central points of Dune, the dangers of being too centralized and following Heroes.


Completely agree. When people say that "you should read Dune and then stop" when talking about the series, I just shake my head in bafflement. Dune is a magnificent book, but if you don't read DM, you kinda miss the point.

Consequences, baby.

HBJ
"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
- Carl Sagan

I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
- Iain Banks

User avatar
Kojiro
Posts: 502
Joined: 09 Jul 2010 23:15
Location: Frank Herbert's Old Stomping Grounds
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Kojiro » 08 Oct 2010 17:27

Yeah, Messiah was pretty damn good. It illustrated how not even allegedly messianic figures were infallible. Even they can fall to the trappings of their own design and folly.
Has not religion claimed a patent on creation for all of these millennia?
-The Tleilaxu Question,
from Muad'dib Speaks

User avatar
Shaitan
Posts: 292
Joined: 27 Aug 2010 22:52
Location: Freeport, Maine USA
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Shaitan » 09 Oct 2010 12:49

Tleszer wrote:Messiah has been my favorite for a while, but God Emperor is almost tied with it.


Children of Dune has a certain satisfaction to it, as Paul's legacy is "saved" by his children....finally, Frank writes something that isn't completely self-negating (the hero's victory is so painful, e.g. the loss of Leto 2.0 and his failure to avert the Jihad, that it almost feels like a defeat)! But, I definitely have to say the mysterious nature of Leto II as a sandtrout-human hybrid and the entire concept of the Golden Path stands head and shoulders above the rest of the series IMO.
"When the going gets weird, the Weird turn Pro." -Hunter S. Thompson
"Man, a guy gets drunk *once* and it's all anyone remembers..." -HBJ

Tycho
Posts: 20
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 11:52

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Tycho » 11 Oct 2010 10:11

I should probably re-read all the books from scratch. But when I first read Messiah I felt it was a 'worthy' sequel but not the standout classic that Dune was. Children of Dune I think was a bit disappointing, series lost its steam, although the ending was cool. It was a couple of years before I picked up God Emperor of Dune, but I remember thinking 'this is possibly better than Dune!' At any rate it reinvented the series and made Leto II the central character of the whole saga (quite something considering how strong a hero Muad'dib already was). A few years later I read Heretics (I think I delayed because GEoD seemed sufficiently 'final' to me), and I was like 'this is amazing! This is as exciting as Dune but as fascinating as GEoD!' The twists, the new characters, the ascendancy of the Tlielaxu, the threat of the HM, made such a great mix. ChapterHouse Dune wasn't as good but it was setting up something greater. I think by ChapterHouse it had become apparent that the Bene Gesserit were the real, ever present protagonists of the series. The relevance of the Old Empire in a post-Scattering universe sort of undermines the gravity of the later books, so I'm guessing Herbert was building towards the Bene Gesserit forming the 'ultimate' society or something, having absorbed all the lessons of the ages better than everyone else. And they'd have to fend off a greater threat than ever before

I think Heretics is my favourite, followed by Dune and GEoD tied for second. CoD my least favourite.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2010 10:17

Tycho wrote:CoD my least favourite.


:shock:
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby SandRider » 11 Oct 2010 12:10

I think Children was the most fun to read, the most enjoyable, and I couldn't
put my finger on just why, but I sure remember thinking that when it (finally) came
out, and the same on all the re-reads - I enjoy Children ... but by the time Children
was published, I was convinced that Messiah was the ultimate statement, the perfect
novel, in the classical sense; I also still think much of the import and sheer mystical,
subliminal messages would transfer to someone who had never read any of Frank's
books...

yeah, by about 74 or so, I sorta thought of Messiah as a "holy book" - not in the literal,
wingnut way, but in the same way we talked about the Divinity of Eric Clapton ...
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2010 12:20

I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6623
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Omphalos » 11 Oct 2010 12:43

Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.


Me too. I love it up until the end of the meeting at the beginning, then it just goes downhill for me. Children I loved, and GEoD is probably my favorite of the Dune books. And yes, that damn dwarf has always driven me nuts.

User avatar
Superdog
Posts: 150
Joined: 10 Apr 2010 23:09

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Superdog » 11 Oct 2010 12:55

Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.


If there was anything the rest of the Dune series is missing, it's more dwarves.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2010 13:15

Superdog wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.


If there was anything the rest of the Dune series is missing, it's more dwarves.


Dwarfs would be more apropriate than robots.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
SandRider
Watermaster
Posts: 6163
Joined: 05 Oct 2008 16:14
Location: In the back of your mind. Always.
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby SandRider » 11 Oct 2010 14:57

Bijaz is the most important character in Messiah ...


I think he escaped to The Scattering and lived serial lives,
being directly involved in, but never directing, the evolution
of the Face Dancers (in the same way Duncan was Leto's anchor)
and I think Frank was planning to bring him back in the end,
to complete Duncan (two sides of the same coin)






and I also think that something that obvious, metaphorical, subtle,
eloquent and artistic would never have crossed either of those fucktard's
little monkey-brains ...


Brian Pherbert: Marty & Daniel as literary metaphors for Frank & Bev ?
Well .... fuck me, I never thought anything like that ....

Spanky McDune: I thought about having a dwarf-toss in POD, y'know, like
them Aussies do, and Fremen standing around a bar with, like, a fountain
just throwing water all out into the air, man, and they're like, just
standing there, you know, drinking growlers of microbrewed spicebeer, and
then like, way off in the distance there's this music, and it kinda builds up
into a, whatcha callit? a crashendo, or something, and then BAM! you realize
it's like Rush, man, and Neil's just ripping around like, thirty, no, fifty
tom-toms, and like the heads of his drums are like made of skin, man, like
the skin of worms, man ... well, no that won't work, but there's
something in there about drum heads and skin, man, I know I
read that ... or maybe that was something you told me, BH ......

Brian Pherbert: Hmmm...? What? I wasn't listening to you ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
ImageImage

I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people.
~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008

User avatar
Kojiro
Posts: 502
Joined: 09 Jul 2010 23:15
Location: Frank Herbert's Old Stomping Grounds
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Kojiro » 11 Oct 2010 17:12

Freakzilla wrote:
Tycho wrote:CoD my least favourite.


:shock:


Yeah, I arched a brow at that one too.
Has not religion claimed a patent on creation for all of these millennia?
-The Tleilaxu Question,
from Muad'dib Speaks

User avatar
Omphalos
Inglorious Bastard
Posts: 6623
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 11:07
Location: The Mighty Central Valley of California
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Omphalos » 11 Oct 2010 17:57

SandRider wrote:Bijaz is the most important character in Messiah ...


Don't mean that he's not as annoying as Tom Bombadil. Hated that guy too.

Tycho
Posts: 20
Joined: 05 Oct 2010 11:52

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Tycho » 11 Oct 2010 19:13

So where do you guys rate CoD?

I mean one of them has to come last.

I was only probably about 14 when I read it so no doubt much of it went over my head. But I mean, here's what I didn't like
1. the whole priesthood thing and the museum fremen and stuff was a bit lame. yeah they were SUPPOSED to be, but i was used to everything in the Dune universe kicking ass
2. Alia was annoying
3. that whole bit about Jacurutu, I couldn't follow what that was all about. It just confused me
4. Paul's 'comeback' was so... empty
5. There was nothing really EXCITING happening, until Leto's metamorphosis
6. Were there any new characters?

all the other books just seem to have more going for them, more that stood out as great. CoD just seemed to pad out the story until the God Emperor emerged

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18156
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Oct 2010 19:54

Tycho wrote:So where do you guys rate CoD?


#1

I mean one of them has to come last.

I was only probably about 14 when I read it so no doubt much of it went over my head. But I mean, here's what I didn't like
1. the whole priesthood thing and the museum fremen and stuff was a bit lame. yeah they were SUPPOSED to be, but i was used to everything in the Dune universe kicking ass
2. Alia was annoying
3. that whole bit about Jacurutu, I couldn't follow what that was all about. It just confused me
4. Paul's 'comeback' was so... empty
5. There was nothing really EXCITING happening, until Leto's metamorphosis
6. Were there any new characters?

all the other books just seem to have more going for them, more that stood out as great. CoD just seemed to pad out the story until the God Emperor emerged


wow

:cylon101:

Alia is possessed by The Baron, the Ecological Transformation is accelerating and the worms are dying, The Preacher, Jessica is kidnapped by Hayt to train Farad'n as a BG, Leto fakes his own death after hypnotizing Ghanima, Gurney sends Leto on the Worm Trip, he forms a symbiosis with sandtrout, wrecks the transformation, kicks Alia's ass, topples a Guild frigate, proves to the Fremen that he's GOD thus uniting the Imperial and desert Fremen and his spice monopoly, marries the Corrinos into House Atreides and absorbs the Sardaukar.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
SandChigger
KJASF Ground Zero
Posts: 14490
Joined: 08 Feb 2008 22:29
Location: "Whatcha having, shoog? Hurry up and order now, I ain't got all day!"
Contact:

Re: Upon further thought...

Postby SandChigger » 11 Oct 2010 20:03

Superdog wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I still have to drag myself through DM. I think it's the dwarf.


If there was anything the rest of the Dune series is missing, it's more dwarves.

You SAID it! God bless the Little People! There's nothing I love more than Friday Night Midget Tossing on ABC! :D


Where to rank CoD?

Meh. I take each book on its own terms, like and dislike various aspects of all of them. :snooty:


Return to “˱”