Who likes Jessica?

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georgiedenbro
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby georgiedenbro » 07 Sep 2014 12:32

D Pope wrote:And, I completely agree with your assessment of Pauls motivation (for lack of a better word) for playing this gambit. We, as
readers, can get our head around why it worked so why does Jessica have such a hard time?


Paul really is sincere, AND he is using effective tactics. That's the point. The BG make themselves appear sincere as well, but it's pure manipulation. The Atreides are really sincere, and people somehow pick up on that and respect it. The difference between fake sincerity and real sincerity is obviously very powerful, as it was helping to make Leto's house very powerful. Jessica has a hard time with it not because she doesn't understand it, but because it's awesome to behold. I can "understand" the idea of a supernova, but if I saw one directly I'd say something like "WHOOOOOAH!"

D Pope wrote:I think Letos message to the future in the Tabr Hoard sums up my thoughts on BG motivation
during the time of the Prophet, they lacked Noble Purpose! (implying something self-serving
about their cause)


I agree with this, but Jessica wasn't a typical BG. She acted for personal reasons and not political ones when she had Paul.

D Pope wrote:I guess I just want to know that I'm not completely off base, remember that for the
first few years after reading Dune, the one thing I couldn't stop thinking about was how these
whims of the powerful affected the commoners.


Feudalism, which seems to favor commoners less than democracy does, is the predominant planetary hierarchy in the Imperium at 10,191. We must assume that this is for the reasons of basic social evolution, meaning it worked the best.

CoD wrote:Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.


There probably were many democratic colonies, and either they didn't make it or they became second-rate powers that were irrelevant. That style of governing was presumably lacking for some reason, and I think Frank hints at the reason in the Dune series but I'd rather discuss it elsewhere; I think it has to do with the eventual contents of Dune 7. Some rulers, such as Leto I, apparently were a lot nicer than others, but even then they fully utilized propaganda, mass exterminations, and every other tool of ruling necessary to maintain control. I'm not sure I'd call the BG any better or worse than the other factions in this sense; all of them would have been willing to do what it took to achieve and maintain power. The BG may have even been better than the rest because we're not privy to their inner teachings, and it's possible that they really did believe they were trying to truly serve the general good. They may have pursued their goals in a self-serving manner, but consider how hard it would be to be both powerful and NOT self-serving; to be both ambitious and humble. It's sort of hard to blame them for not being perfect in this respect, and I think Leto II understood that they weren't that far off the mark from being on the right path.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"

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Mr. Melange
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby Mr. Melange » 07 Sep 2014 19:24

D Pope wrote:Other memory from Heretics & Chapterhouse' time makes a strong
argument against mine


Nah I'll refute my own argument.

Just cause she loves Leto and her son doesn't mean she couldn't be a selfish and conniving. She was full of vengance possibly more than Paul, since Paul could at least see the mess he was going to make.

Not to mention that she did come off as kind disconnected in CoD. When she uses honesty as a tactic with Ghanima, that was pretty calculating for my tastes.
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse

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Freakzilla
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Sep 2014 19:59

She didn't have a choice with Ghanima, she had Jessica's memories.
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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Mr. Melange
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby Mr. Melange » 07 Sep 2014 21:12

She could also have witheld herself since Ghanima was a child.
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse

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Freakzilla
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby Freakzilla » 07 Sep 2014 22:30

Mr. Melange wrote:She could also have witheld herself since Ghanima was a child.


A child? She was preborn. Read it again.
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

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Serkanner
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby Serkanner » 08 Sep 2014 03:10

Mr. Melange wrote:She could also have witheld herself since Ghanima was a child.


Huh?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Mr. Melange
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby Mr. Melange » 08 Sep 2014 06:05

Freakzilla wrote:A child? She was preborn. Read it again.


You misunderstand. I know she is pre-born. I was trying to assist the point that Jessica initially witholding herself in that encounter was not based entirely on cold and calculating reasons. Just because Jessica knows Ghanima is pre born does not mean it is easy for her to treat Ghanima like an adult.

Wanting to withhold political conspiracy from a granddaughter could be considered caring, is my point.
"Imagine being told that the forging of the ring was really not a plan of Saurons, he just helped - and it was really for the good, because it was needed to defeat these mega-spiders which were somehow related to Shelob (in a way inconsistent with the Silmarillion)...
Meanwhile, a hobbit named Norma becomes a valar because she dies horribly due to a spider-bite, returns to Middle Earth and walks around a bit, inventing everything interesting you ever hear of in LoTR."
-Lundse

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lotek
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Re: Who likes Jessica?

Postby lotek » 09 Sep 2014 05:38

Love was always Jessica's flaw in the eyes of the BG, and her ultimate redemption in ours.
Spice is the worm's gonads.


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