A (real!) Jungian influence.

    Can't find the appropriate forum for your topic? Post it here!

Moderators: Omphalos, Freakzilla, ᴶᵛᵀᴬ

User avatar
SadisticCynic
Posts: 2045
Joined: 07 Apr 2009 09:28
Location: In Time or in Space?

A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby SadisticCynic » 09 Jun 2010 20:53

"Let me make it clear," she said. Briefly, she explained how she had
awakened to Reverend Mother awareness before birth, a terrified fetus with the
knowledge of countless lives embedded in her nerve cells -- and all this after
the death of her father.
~DM


This may have been pointed out before but I wanted to make sure. From the Wikipedia article on Collective Unconscious we read:

It is a part of the unconscious mind, expressed in humanity and all life forms with nervous systems, and describes how the structure of the psyche autonomously organizes experience


I read a book called Jung: Selected Writings and while some of it felt very much like reading Herbert I could never really put my finger on an particular section and think Ha! that's definitely Jung. Although undoubtedly there is a strong influence from Jung in Herbert's work. I just found this particular example compelling. I also found it shortly after reading Freak's post which quoted the DM passage (synchronicity? :D ).

The (unfortunately short) article also mentions:

Jung's writing style has often been described as dense and technical, which might have contributed to the definition of the collective unconscious being misconstrued as an inheritance of accumulated experience from preceding generations.


Interesting, no?
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby merkin muffley » 09 Jun 2010 23:40

Aha, I knew there was an actual, valid connection between Herbert and Jung, and it's a very strong connection. Even though Other Memory is probably outside the strict definition of science fiction, and the idea of the collective unconscious probably requires an imaginative leap into mysticism, it's still very interesting and, at the very least, a meaningful metaphor for things in real life. Thank you, SadisticCynic. It makes me want to read Jung.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Jun 2010 11:32

It wasn't outside Science Fiction at the time, we knew relatively little about the genome back then.
Image

User avatar
Aquila ka-Hecate
Posts: 233
Joined: 21 Feb 2010 06:52
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 10 Jun 2010 12:55

This rings a bell for me.
As a practising Pagan for over 25 years, (now slightly mutated into something else, I admit), I've always felt comfortable with Jungian psychology.
Not that I understand it very well.
But yes, the Dune material gives me that same sort of feeling.

merkin muffley wrote:Even though Other Memory is probably outside the strict definition of science fiction, and the idea of the collective unconscious probably requires an imaginative leap into mysticism,


A leap I have already made.
Someone was once asking me why Dune was so popular in Pagan circles - this partly answers it, I think.

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby merkin muffley » 10 Jun 2010 14:21

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:Someone was once asking me why Dune was so popular in Pagan circles - this partly answers it, I think.


I have a friend that's a practicing pagan who's really into Dune. He says he actually uses the litany against fear. He also has a piece of metal in his penis.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
TheDukester
Posts: 3808
Joined: 20 Jun 2008 13:44
Location: Operation Enduring Bacon
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby TheDukester » 10 Jun 2010 14:26

Well, hell, who doesn't?
"Anything I write will be remembered and listed in bibliographies on Dune for several hundred years ..." — some delusional halfwit troll.

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Jun 2010 14:48

I always wonder what people mean when they say they're pagan, kinda broad term. It's like a Christian saying they're a monotheist instead of specifying further.

Anyways, I'm sure when someone say's they're pagan they're just saying that to keep it simple? It's always confused me.
Image

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby merkin muffley » 10 Jun 2010 15:40

The impression I got is that it's oriented towards mother nature. He seems to observe specific holidays, like Beltane, which is one of the solstices(?). [EDIT: creepiness]
Last edited by merkin muffley on 10 Jun 2010 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 10 Jun 2010 16:34

I know generally what people mean when they say Pagan, but that's a whole gigantic group of religions... and there does seem to be some people who really don't even know that.
Image

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18239
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Freakzilla » 10 Jun 2010 17:27

I thought it meant they were Catholic. :P
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby merkin muffley » 10 Jun 2010 20:50

Freakzilla wrote:I thought it meant they were Catholic. :P


That's before the exorcism.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
Aquila ka-Hecate
Posts: 233
Joined: 21 Feb 2010 06:52
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 10 Jun 2010 23:13

Don't worry about it: Pagans can't even agree with a single definition.

Yes, it's an umbrella term which covers a lot of different paths. Some have attempted to define it as a bunch of Earth-centred sprituality-practising religions, but of course you get folks who call themselves Pagan to whom this doesn't strictly apply. I'm thinking of some Thelemites and Asatruars here.

Then there are some people whose religious path is very Earth centred who don't call themselves Pagan.

And again, attempts to define Paganism as 'non-Book-religions' causes trouble - some Hindus are happy to be described as Pagan (especially here in South Africa, where the Hindu and Pagan communities frequently make common cause), and some are offended by it.
Buddhists? Are they Pagan? Well, I include many Buddhist practises in my daily routine but the Buddhist community seem mostly anxious to avoid that label.

I'm a foot-in-each-camp - ie I call myself Pagan for brevity most of the time, but that label has become no longer accurate. I'm a Pantheist and AnarchoPrimitivist Shaman. Big words.

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby merkin muffley » 10 Jun 2010 23:16

My friend is an Alexandrian.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
Aquila ka-Hecate
Posts: 233
Joined: 21 Feb 2010 06:52
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 10 Jun 2010 23:18

merkin muffley wrote:My friend is an Alexandrian.


Ah. A real Wiccan, then. Not one of these eclectic sods who run around appropriating the word. :mrgreen:

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Jun 2010 02:09

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:Don't worry about it: Pagans can't even agree with a single definition.

Yes, it's an umbrella term which covers a lot of different paths. Some have attempted to define it as a bunch of Earth-centred sprituality-practising religions, but of course you get folks who call themselves Pagan to whom this doesn't strictly apply. I'm thinking of some Thelemites and Asatruars here.

Then there are some people whose religious path is very Earth centred who don't call themselves Pagan.

And again, attempts to define Paganism as 'non-Book-religions' causes trouble - some Hindus are happy to be described as Pagan (especially here in South Africa, where the Hindu and Pagan communities frequently make common cause), and some are offended by it.
Buddhists? Are they Pagan? Well, I include many Buddhist practises in my daily routine but the Buddhist community seem mostly anxious to avoid that label.

I'm a foot-in-each-camp - ie I call myself Pagan for brevity most of the time, but that label has become no longer accurate. I'm a Pantheist and AnarchoPrimitivist Shaman. Big words.



Sounds like you've had about the same experience as me with "pagans". As to Buddhists - doesn't "pagan" require polythiesm, wheras Buddhists are atheist?

Pantheist is neat, has been called "sexed up atheism" at times though. I find panentheism pretty interesting too. (don't believe in either in the least, but I do have a ranking system for what I like/dislike in religiousness and those end up nearer the top)
Image

User avatar
Aquila ka-Hecate
Posts: 233
Joined: 21 Feb 2010 06:52
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 11 Jun 2010 02:49

A Thing of Eternity wrote:As to Buddhists - doesn't "pagan" require polythiesm, wheras Buddhists are atheist?


I wouldn't like to try calling the Dalai Lama an Atheist :mrgreen:

Or Ken Wilber for that matter.

I'm not quite clear on the difference between pantheism and panentheism, although one of my blog friends is the latter. I gather the impression that panentheism involves a distinct God being In Everything, while pantheism just involves everything Being God.

User avatar
Aquila ka-Hecate
Posts: 233
Joined: 21 Feb 2010 06:52
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 11 Jun 2010 02:59

merkin muffley wrote:The impression I got is that it's oriented towards mother nature. He seems to observe specific holidays, like Beltane, which is one of the solstices(?). [EDIT: creepiness]


Can I just be a Clever Clogs here, and correct you?

Beltane is the First of Summer Sabbat. (May Day or thereabouts to Northern Hemisphere Pagans) .

Mid summer, sometimes unaccountably called Litha, is the Sabbat after this, and is the Solstice.

User avatar
A Thing of Eternity
Posts: 6090
Joined: 08 Apr 2008 15:35
Location: Calgary Alberta

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 11 Jun 2010 11:07

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:As to Buddhists - doesn't "pagan" require polythiesm, wheras Buddhists are atheist?


I wouldn't like to try calling the Dalai Lama an Atheist :mrgreen:

Or Ken Wilber for that matter.

I'm not quite clear on the difference between pantheism and panentheism, although one of my blog friends is the latter. I gather the impression that panentheism involves a distinct God being In Everything, while pantheism just involves everything Being God.


Yeah, I only call good friend buddhists who know the actual definition of "atheist" that, otherwise they might get confused or insulted. They certainly aren't atheist in the common meaning of the word.

You got panentheism just backwards (which considering the nature of these things isn't actually that far off). Of course, as you said, pantheism is everything being the god. Panentheism means that everything is inside god (as opposed to normal Christianity where god is removed from the universe, not living in it, or it inside "him" - though I have met one panentheist Christian).
Image

User avatar
merkin muffley
Posts: 1584
Joined: 23 Apr 2010 15:18
Location: War Room

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby merkin muffley » 11 Jun 2010 11:38

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:Beltane is the First of Summer Sabbat. (May Day or thereabouts to Northern Hemisphere Pagans) .

Mid summer, sometimes unaccountably called Litha, is the Sabbat after this, and is the Solstice.



Thank you. I got the whole rundown yesterday when he explained the Alexandrian tradition. Still hasn't sufficiently explained why he'd put a piece of metal in his penis.
"I must admit, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor...."

User avatar
Aquila ka-Hecate
Posts: 233
Joined: 21 Feb 2010 06:52
Location: Johannesburg
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Aquila ka-Hecate » 11 Jun 2010 23:57

merkin muffley wrote:Thank you. I got the whole rundown yesterday when he explained the Alexandrian tradition. Still hasn't sufficiently explained why he'd put a piece of metal in his penis.


Sshh..It's A Mystery. These bloody Initiatory Witches.

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:Panentheism means that everything is inside god (as opposed to normal Christianity where god is removed from the universe, not living in it, or it inside "him" - though I have met one panentheist Christian)


Ah - thank you. The woman I know is also a Christian panentheist. Or mostly Christian, anyway. She changes her mind a lot.

WaterDiscipline
Posts: 3
Joined: 21 Jun 2010 07:19

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby WaterDiscipline » 21 Jun 2010 20:46

I don't know. I'm not too convinced that you've uncovered a compelling connection between Herbert and Jung here.

I take the Herbert excerpt to mean that (Alia?) can fall back on previous lives and, essentially, become these dead individuals by giving up control of her body (her "nervous cells").

The passage about Jung says that Jung postulates that the collective unconscious can be found in all organisms with a "nervous system." This isn't saying the nervous cells of our body all have memory of the previous generations embedded in them. Actually it's much more mundane than that. The nervous system includes the brain. I believe all this passage is saying is that organisms with brains have (purportedly) a collective unconscious.

But that being said, I wouldn't argue that Herbert's work has no relation to Jungianism. In a general way, yeah, the past-life regression of the Atreides mystics seems to be an implicit argument for a collective unconscious much more direct than ordinary life can understand or make use of. It's a combination of melange and psychic training techniques across multiple generations that really open up this awareness in the human for the first time.

User avatar
Freakzilla
Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
Posts: 18239
Joined: 05 Feb 2008 01:27
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Contact:

Re: A (real!) Jungian influence.

Postby Freakzilla » 21 Jun 2010 21:15

The doctor I posted about here thinks that consciousness is in nerve cells... or something like that.
Image
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman