Singular form of Iduali


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lotek
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Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

As you all know the Iduali is the name given by the other Fremen tribes to the members of Sietch Jacurutu.

I'd like to use its singular form and would hate to make one up when either one already exists or someone here with better knowledge of languages could find a plausible solution.

Thanks!
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by SandChigger »

I've tried looking for an Arabic source, even asked Khalid what he thought, but no joy thus far.

The -i ending does work as an Arabic nisba adjective, but singular, not plural. It could also be taken as a Latin masculine noun plural ending. ;)

Water Insects. I like that. :)
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

at least it was not already on your blog ;)

I'll try to see what I can find then!
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

SandChigger wrote:Water Insects. I like that. :)
you would wouldn't you?

what with being a bug and all :)

you are now a water bug!
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

no luck with google,
just a random apparition on an apparently Indian website...
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

I think Iduali is used much like Deer is used. Where you say Deer in the singular, you use "Deer" in the plural as well. You don't says "Deers".
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

Orthodox wrote:I think Iduali is used much like Deer is used. Where you say Deer in the singular, you use "Deer" in the plural as well. You don't says "Deers".
yeah that makes sense
I'll still try to find out where it could come from though
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

Do we know for certain where Frank picked up his lingustics? I assume he morphed words, or that in the time he was writing it, such little was known that modern anglicizing of words is different now than was then.

Orange comes to mind.
Dictionary.Com wrote:WORD HISTORY Oranges imported to China from the United States reflect a journey come full circle, for the orange had worked its way westward for centuries, originating in China, then being introduced to India, and traveling on to the Middle East, into Europe, and finally to the New World. The history of the word orange keeps step with this journey only part of the way. The word is possibly ultimately from Dravidian, a family of languages spoken in southern India and northern Sri Lanka. The Dravidian word or words were adopted into the Indo-European language Sanskrit with the form nārangaḥ. As the fruit passed westward, so did the word, as evidenced by Persian nārang and Arabic nāranj. Arabs brought the first oranges to Spain, and the fruit rapidly spread throughout Europe. The important word for the development of our term is Old Italian melarancio, derived from mela, "fruit," and arancio, "orange tree," from Arabic nāranj. Old Italian melarancio was translated into Old French as pume orenge, the o replacing the a because of the influence of the name of the town of Orange, from which oranges reached the northern part of France. The final stage of the odyssey of the word was its borrowing into English from the Old French form orenge. Our word is first recorded in Middle English in a text probably composed around 1380, a time preceding the arrival of the orange in the New World.
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Aquila ka-Hecate »

..and here's another example of Frank Herbert morphing words:

The same book (I think it was Heretics, but please correct me if I'm wrong), we meet both Tylwyth Waff and Miles Teg.

I'm always gently amused by this rendering into two of the Welsh name for the Fair Folk, especially as one of the two characters bears a passing resemblance to one of the Little People.

Frank could be obtusely funny.
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by SandChigger »

Yes, he was a waff a minute. :P

Cheers, though: I didn't know that one! :)
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

Do you think that by using linguistic cues, that Frank meant to create imagery of that person through what we would call "stereotypes"?
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by SandChigger »

I'd say that's a fairly safe bet. :)

Do you mean strictly on an individual character level?
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

I think character and story. The use of Arabic when he did, gives you a very different view on things than if it was completely anglicized.
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by SandChigger »

True. And we always have to keep in mind WHEN he began writing the books. In the 60s, Arabic and Islam probably still evoked very alien and exotic images.

There are also the obvious (or oft discussed) House names, with "Atreides" evoking Greek tragedy and "Harkonnen" the Cold War & distrust. (Maybe Corrino is supposed to bring to mind an effete & fading Italian nobility?)

In CoD FH used a Chinese-looking phrase (Shien-san-Shao) as an Ixian term, maybe to play off the imagery of Japan & China as growing technology & manufacturing centers.

Lots more, I'm sure.
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

Oh, yes, I imagine that's exactly what he intended. This of course, is what boggles me about Keith and BoBo. Many times they have been just plain ignorant of how to evoke symbolic gestures. Frank was predicting the future in the way he saw it, by using words to evoke imagery. That is of course a little beyond them, I know. I have asked Kevin why he doesn't use more Arabic words. I think he said something along the lines of, "Well, I don't know Arabic" or something. :roll:
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by SandChigger »

Then WHAT in the name of Frank's scrotal hairs was that CHISRA SALA MUAD'DIB BULLSHIT?! :evil:

Aaaaagh! Son of Pig AND Dog!!! :angry-screaming:

...

I feel much better now. :shifty:
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

Probably saw it while eating cereal one night -- I mean, thought of it while hiking!
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

Orthodox wrote:Do you think that by using linguistic cues, that Frank meant to create imagery of that person through what we would call "stereotypes"?
in this case I would go as far as "archetypes" :)

From Wiki(as usual)

Orthodox wrote:Oh, yes, I imagine that's exactly what he intended. This of course, is what boggles me about Keith and BoBo. Many times they have been just plain ignorant of how to evoke symbolic gestures. Frank was predicting the future in the way he saw it, by using words to evoke imagery. That is of course a little beyond them, I know. I have asked Kevin why he doesn't use more Arabic words. I think he said something along the lines of, "Well, I don't know Arabic" or something. :roll:
what an idiot...
I mean even a child able to read would be able to get some references to make it at least realistic.

Oh and when did you ask him that btw(and more important how come he answered?)






SandChigger wrote:Then WHAT in the name of Frank's scrotal hairs was that CHISRA SALA MUAD'DIB BULLSHIT?! :evil:

Aaaaagh! Son of Pig AND Dog!!! :angry-screaming:

...

I feel much better now. :shifty:
yeah that's it let it out otherwise it will eat you :)
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by MrFlibble »

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:..and here's another example of Frank Herbert morphing words:

The same book (I think it was Heretics, but please correct me if I'm wrong), we meet both Tylwyth Waff and Miles Teg.

I'm always gently amused by this rendering into two of the Welsh name for the Fair Folk, especially as one of the two characters bears a passing resemblance to one of the Little People.

Frank could be obtusely funny.
How interesting! I didn't know that either :) This reference pretty much suits Waff, who is described to have elfin features. Teg, however, is an exact opposite of the Tleilaxu.
SandChigger wrote:There are also the obvious (or oft discussed) House names, with "Atreides" evoking Greek tragedy and "Harkonnen" the Cold War & distrust.
Hm, that's a bit odd, since Harkonnen is a Finnish name, and Finland was never a major figure in the Eastern Bloc. In Heretics, the Harkonnens are mentioned to have Turkish roots as well.
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by SandChigger »

Isn't there an interview or something with FH where he gives that as the reason for the name? Something about getting it out of a phonebook, maybe?
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by MrFlibble »

Hm, the same article says FH modeled the Harkonnens after the Nazis, which I've read somewhere before, but can anyone give me a link to the actual interview?
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Omphalos »

SandChigger wrote:Isn't there an interview or something with FH where he gives that as the reason for the name? Something about getting it out of a phonebook, maybe?
I think that is in one of the interviews that I found and posted on T(A)U. There's so much there I can't keep it straight any more.
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by Orthodox »

Sorry, but what is T(A)U?
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Re: Singular form of Iduali

Post by lotek »

Orthodox wrote:Sorry, but what is T(A)U?
aren't you supposed to be coming back in hiding?

so you should know what it is no?

So either way you are lying as I see it...
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