An early take on Dune by BH

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Omphalos
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An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Omphalos » 13 Dec 2009 15:38

Last night I bought a used copy of a book called The Best of the Nebulas, edited by Ben Bova. In addition to the best short works that have won Nebulas, it also has blurbs on the ten best novel length winners. Dune, of course, is listed first. BH did the blurb. Although most of it is typical BH gushing about his dad's work, I kind of get the impression that back in 1987 when he wrote it, he might have actually gotten it. Here's a bit from the article that I though you all would like to see:

He even had the courage to make up his own works if the need arose, and with the skill of an accomplihsed wordsmith he hammered out some rather extraordinary examples. Many of his words are rooted in Arabic and he Hebrew, and in numerous cases he combined syllables from two languages, two cultures, or even two religions. He referred to Zensunni and Zensufi literature, for instance, whereby Zen is joined alternately with the Islamic denominations Sunni and Sufi, Sometimes he programmed his computer to make random word and name combination from selected alphabets. On other occasions he found names in telephone books: Harkonnen, for example.

The words and names in Dune are eclectic. Alia was one of the Muslim saints, tracing her descent directly from Muhammed. Atreides is based upon Howe Atreus, from Greek history. The word "sihaya" is Navajo; "seitch" is Chakobsa, a language found in the Caucasus; "jihad" is Islamic for holy war, and this word has the same meaning in Arabic as it does to the people of Dune. The Padishah Emperor ruling the universe of Dune is from Persian, East Indian and Turkish traditions. Jamis is an old English name that my father found when researching very old genealogical records.


Some interesting stuff there.

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby lotek » 13 Dec 2009 16:33

yeah then theJhackASS barged in with his dictahiker and his 8th grade level of writing and it all went down the drain...
I think it makes it even worse he might have gotten it and let it go in the hands of the Defiler of Legacies :roll:
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Dec 2009 16:52

Far more cohesive understanding than I get from his ramblings now a days. I wonder if in the last 15-20+ years his mind has simply deteriorated - he was an alcoholic was he not? I know some recovered alcoholics who seem to have pretty similar "slowness" to BH.
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby lotek » 13 Dec 2009 16:54

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Far more cohesive understanding than I get from his ramblings now a days. I wonder if in the last 15-20+ years his mind has simply deteriorated - he was an alcoholic was he not? I know some recovered alcoholics who seem to have pretty similar "slowness" to BH.


like who?
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Dec 2009 17:06

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh man, I set that one up good without even realizing it!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Freakzilla » 13 Dec 2009 17:22

Omphalos wrote:..."seitch" is Chakobsa, a language found in the Caucasus...



:shock:
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Omphalos » 13 Dec 2009 18:14

Freakzilla wrote:
Omphalos wrote:..."seitch" is Chakobsa, a language found in the Caucasus...



:shock:


Pretty sure we have talked about this one before. IIRC we concluded that the language's name was changed a bit, as was the word.

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby lotek » 13 Dec 2009 19:32

found this(well it was the 4th link on google)
Those of you who have read Frank Herbert's Dune will remember the Fremen language Chakobsa, described by Wikipedia as "a mixture of Roma (or gypsy) language..., one sentence in Serbo-Croat and various Arabic terms." Imagine my surprise when I was reading Lesley Blanch's absorbing if overheated The Sabres of Paradise (1960), about the Russian-Chechen conflicts of the nineteenth century, and hit this on page 21: "They laughed derisively, speaking among themselves in that mysterious tongue, Chakobsa, 'the Hunting Language', which the rulers and Princes used when they wished to converse in secret, and of which no more than a few words have been discovered."

As you can imagine, the Frank Herbert hits swamp the Google results, but I was able to turn up one precious find from Google Books (a damnable "snippet view," but one of those rare ones where you can actually see the bit you need), from page 75 of George Thomas's 1977 The Languages and Literatures of the Non-Russian Peoples of the Soviet Union: "Presumably the Circassian Hunting language, also called Chakobsa or Sikowschir (Reineggs 1796, 248), (Bzhedukh /šhə-k'oa-bza/" (the snippet cuts off there).

http://www.languagehat.com/archives/003126.php
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby lotek » 13 Dec 2009 19:33

double
Last edited by lotek on 14 Dec 2009 05:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby trang » 14 Dec 2009 00:55

lotsa nice stuff in there, and he didnt even use the word DARK once!!
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby SandChigger » 14 Dec 2009 02:10

Some dumbfuck with a name wrote:He even had the courage to make up his own works if the need arose [Yeah, that's been "courageous" since Tolkien and others before him.], and with the skill of an accomplished wordsmith he hammered out some rather extraordinary examples.[Really think so? I'm sure some of the gibberish you've vomited forth while three sheets to the wind has been far more surprising.] Many of his words are rooted in Arabic and the Hebrew[Um, no, many of the words ARE Arabic and Hebrew.], and in numerous cases he combined syllables from two languages, two cultures, or even two religions[Cultures and religions have syllables? Huh?]. He referred to Zensunni and Zensufi literature[Those are full words/names, not just "syllables".], for instance, whereby Zen is joined alternately with the Islamic denominations Sunni and Sufi, Sometimes he programmed his computer to make random word and name combination from selected alphabets.[Who hasn't?] On other occasions he found names in telephone books: Harkonnen, for example.[Again, this is something I believe other writers have mentioned doing as well.]

The words and names in Dune are eclectic. Alia was one of the Muslim saints, tracing her descent directly from Muhammed.[He must have been drunk here. Alia = Auliya, the general term in Arabic used to designate a saint. Unless someone knows of a specific female Muslim he has in mind?] Atreides is based upon House(?) Atreus, from Greek history.[No ... really?!] The word "sihaya" is Navajo[Have never been able to confirm or disprove this one.]; "seitch" is Chakobsa, a language found in the Caucasus; "jihad" is Islamic for holy war[Islamic? What language is that?], and this word has the same meaning in Arabic[You mean Islamic, don't you?] as it does to the people of Dune.[Wow ... Art imitates Life.] The Padishah Emperor ruling the universe of Dune is from Persian, East Indian and Turkish traditions. Jamis is an old English name that my father found when researching very old genealogical records.[It's a form of James, in other words. :roll: ]


Ah, that was refreshing. :twisted:

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Omphalos » 14 Dec 2009 03:01

I think maybe I should have added something to your title the other day.

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby SandChigger » 14 Dec 2009 05:21

Something like ... Irritable Bitchy Prick, you mean? :lol:

;)

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Mr. Teg » 14 Dec 2009 10:00

Brian has never offered anything more than a surface insight into Dune.
(To dumb to even read other books about Dune, so he might sound semi-intelligent)

I think he instinctively had the right idea in the beginning.
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Omphalos » 14 Dec 2009 12:51

SandChigger wrote:Something like ... Irritable Bitchy Prick, you mean? :lol:

;)


i was going ot say something like "KJA & BH Hater."

If you have a rash down there, I'm sure you can find a cream for it. :wink:

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Dec 2009 12:53

SandChigger wrote:Something like ... Irritable Bitchy Prick, you mean? :lol:

;)



Man, my daughter is going to FREAK OUT when she sees that avatar. :(
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby SandChigger » 14 Dec 2009 18:40

Big Daruma fan, huh? :lol:

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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Freakzilla » 14 Dec 2009 20:11

Haha, no. A big KITTY fan. :lol:
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Re: An early take on Dune by BH

Postby Omphalos » 14 Dec 2009 21:26

Im sure we're going to San Rio store tomorow when we go shopping for presents for the kiddos. My little daughter likes that cute Japanese stuff a lot.