"Paul is a weakling and a coward"

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Redstar
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"Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Redstar » 11 Nov 2009 10:41

I came across this discussion on the Dune series, and because of one of the poster's comments I decided to register and see if I could share the message of the series in an attempt to set him straight. He's basically trashing all the books after the first, going so far as saying even Frank's books are as bad as KJA's.

Let me know if you agree with me, or if my interpretation is entirely wrong. (Being a bit of an apologist in my responses, btw, though I don't necessarily have to)

oddball wrote:Isn't it only Duncan Idaho that Frank Herbert brought back? Singular character, boss mod. >_> The false prophets brought back the rest.

Redstar wrote:
lexus wrote:He paved the way for those false prophets heresies. Besides, he brought that Harkonnen guy back through the genetic memory bullshit. That just didnt make any sense.

How did it not make any sense? It was a brilliantly ironic, and ultimately very tragic how Alia succumbed to Possession. Especially since not a single person helped her... Her own mother abandoned her.
lexus wrote:And he brought Paul Astreides back as well. He clearly was supposed to die at the end of the second book but it turned out he wasnt dead.

Dead people should stay dead, and not mysteriously survive or brought back to life.

I don't believe he was "supposed" to die at all. The first three books, Dune, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune were originally conceived as one large masterwork. A single volume made up of many books, akin to J.R.R Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. Paul coming back was planned from the beginning, so it wasn't like Frank changed his mind or anything.
lexus wrote:But thats not the only thing that made me stop like the serie. It just had a lot of unexplained things, logical fallacies, major plotholes and just a lot less interesting actions then the first book.

What sort of things do you think were unexplained, logical fallacies, or major plotholes? I'm a huge fan of the series, and frequent a user board of many people that have been fans since the books came out and now are linguists, book reviewers, and writers in their own right. We haven't seen any of those things in the books past the first.


Redstar wrote:
lexus wrote:He was her uncle. That means he should not even be in her genetic memory. At least, not his entire personality. That doesnt make sense. How could he be in her genetic memory. I experienced it as a pretty lame way to make her go insane. She might as well gotten high on spice or something, which caused her to get schizophrenia. A much better explanaition, instead of letting distant relatives take over a body.

The Baron was Alia's grandfather. The Baron was secretly Jessica's father, so that would make him the grandfather of Paul and Alia. Alia's descent into Possession was a brilliant irony because she killed him in the original, only to become him in the end.
lexus wrote:Maybe not, but I personally found it to be quite weak. It broke down the character of Paul. I mean, when they found him he had turned into some kind of weakling and a coward, to afraid to die. It would have been a lot better to let him die back in the second book. Would gave his character so much more strength. Now hes just an ordinary human with visions. A coward. Which totally the opposite of what he was in the first 2 books.

Paul was always meant to be a coward and a weakling. The entire first book he feared the coming Jihad, knowing he could never stop it, only soften it. The Jihad is the beginning of the Golden Path, and because Paul submitted to his humanity and lessened its impact, the Golden Path would have failed. Leto II had to take it in his place because, from the very beginning, even in the first book, Paul feared it too much.

Note in Dune Messiah the Bene Tleilax admitted to having created their own Kwisatz Haderach. What happened to him? He killed himself. As noted by Scytale, "A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation." In the same way, Paul became the opposite of what being an Atreides meant by becoming the Kwisatz Haderach. Prescience trapped him on a path, the GOLDEN Path, that he was unwilling to take. Because of this he became The Preacher, too fearful to practice what he was preaching. So essentially he did die (albeit spiritually), by becoming a broken man. Thematically, that's perfect.
lexus wrote:I loved the first book. Because it had a clear end. It should have stopped there. After that, he was just adding stuff, stuff that didnt make a lot of sense (people being cloned constantly, distant relatives taking over) then giving others superpowers and finally turning a guy in a worm. Come on! How does that even fit in what was told about the whole dune universe in the first book? No wonder those heretics could later add such bullshit to the entire universe. Because really, super aqua spice worms isnt that far away from turning humans into worm god emperors with servants that should have been dead ages ago. The entire series follows a steady line from reasonably possible, nothing to insane to just plain stupid and after that to absolutly retarded.

See my point? They keep adding things that are getting absurder and absurder in every book, constantly making it slightly less realistic, but youll never notice it till youre at the last books and then look back at the first book.

I understand perfectly what you mean. Most Orthodox fans agree the first book is the absolute best. I count it as stand-alone, but that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the rest in the series. Many of us do. None of them contradict the inherent message of the first book, that of never submitting entirely to leaders because of trapping yourself on a path of destiny rather than free-will. The first book was the set-up of a messiah archetype, and not as obviously the set-up of a political figure. The second and third books deconstructed that rise to its natural end, showing what was hinted at throughout the first book and just about blatantly told at the very end.

The first three books are a clearly trilogy. No, not even that... They're a single book, divided into three volumes. They're inextricably bound. You can't truly understand the message without reading all three, no matter your feelings on the subject of messiahs and politicians. The final three books can easily be ignored for they stand well enough on their own as a separate trilogy, but the first three just cannot be divided. My opinion, at least.

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby SandChigger » 11 Nov 2009 16:31

(People who write that badly generally don't read very well, either. The only reason to engage an idiot of that calibre, ever, is that you're enjoying it. I'm sure FH & Dune's reputation will survive being bashed on an animé board. ;) )

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Serkanner » 11 Nov 2009 17:05

SandChigger wrote:(People who write that badly generally don't read very well, either. The only reason to engage an idiot of that calibre, ever, is that you're enjoying it. I'm sure FH & Dune's reputation will survive being bashed on an animé board. ;) )


... you could also invite it here for some more friendly discussion.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Hunchback Jack » 11 Nov 2009 17:16

I still need to reread DM, but based on the Paul in Dune, I think it's a bit harsh to call him a coward and a weakling. I think his desire to avoid the Jihad is an honourable one, as he sees it purely as a byproduct of his own rise to power. Granted, he was unable to use his prescience to prevent the Jihad.

Perhaps I'm making excuses for him, but from the vague descriptions in Dune, the Jihad appears almost inevitable - or at least, the only alternatives involve Paul's death, and not even those possibilities prevent the Jihad from happening. Paul sees it as his duty, almost, to stay alive in order to try to prevent it from happening.

I could be wrong, but it's not clear to me that in Dune, he can see past the Jihad to the Golden Path beyond yet.

HBJ
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 11 Nov 2009 18:25

Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

~CoD

So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Seraphan » 11 Nov 2009 19:21

Hunchback Jack wrote:I still need to reread DM, but based on the Paul in Dune, I think it's a bit harsh to call him a coward and a weakling. I think his desire to avoid the Jihad is an honourable one, as he sees it purely as a byproduct of his own rise to power. Granted, he was unable to use his prescience to prevent the Jihad.

Perhaps I'm making excuses for him, but from the vague descriptions in Dune, the Jihad appears almost inevitable - or at least, the only alternatives involve Paul's death, and not even those possibilities prevent the Jihad from happening. Paul sees it as his duty, almost, to stay alive in order to try to prevent it from happening.

I could be wrong, but it's not clear to me that in Dune, he can see past the Jihad to the Golden Path beyond yet.

HBJ

I remember that his prescient vision, before he takes the water of life, is said to be like real vision, you see plains and mountains and you cant see beyond them until you climb enough.

I think at the end of Dune he realizes that the Jihad cannot be prevented no mater what, the hero myth and the role of messiah that was built around him ensured that.


Really now, an anime forum? Discution of DUNE in an anime forum? That's the same as discussing it with 4th graders. Worst even.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Redstar » 11 Nov 2009 20:19

SandChigger wrote:(People who write that badly generally don't read very well, either. The only reason to engage an idiot of that calibre, ever, is that you're enjoying it. I'm sure FH & Dune's reputation will survive being bashed on an animé board. ;) )

Well I got involved for two reasons.

1.) The guy's a mod, so he's clearly an idiot in power. Take him down a notch, and not leave the series hanging on such an opinion when there are people in there that were considering reading it themselves.

2.) Post my interpretation, share it here, and see if I'm an idiot too.

Seraphan wrote:Really now, an anime forum? Discution of DUNE in an anime forum? That's the same as discussing it with 4th graders. Worst even.

:roll: Well, didn't even realize it was an anime forum until you brought it up. I just focused on the people... And besides that one person, everyone else seems to be offering good points. The thread seemed on its way to dying until I responded, and now there's a four-way discussion going on. Worth my time, I think.

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Seraphan » 11 Nov 2009 20:28

Have fun then :D
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby inhuien » 12 Nov 2009 07:21

Freakzilla wrote:Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

~CoD

So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
So he only so the cause not the effect as it were, I wonderful if it took the preborn to perceive it's fullness. And re preventing the Second Jihad, IIRC the only possibility for that was when the Fremen troop were returning to Sietch Tabr, or was is it Cave of Birds, for the first time and it required the death of everyone whom was there.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 10:43

inhuien wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

~CoD

So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
So he only so the cause not the effect as it were, I wonderful if it took the preborn to perceive it's fullness. And re preventing the Second Jihad, IIRC the only possibility for that was when the Fremen troop were returning to Sietch Tabr, or was is it Cave of Birds, for the first time and it required the death of everyone whom was there.


I think you're right about it being Cave of Bird and yes, the whole troup would have had to die for word of the messiah not to get out.

Leto's prescience was orders of magnitude greater than Paul's it seems. Either Paul chose not to look or couldn't. However, the extinction would have occured before the time of Leto's death so your guess is as good as mine. Could Paul see 3,500 years into the future? There're no accounts of him looking even remotely that far into the future.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Serkanner » 12 Nov 2009 11:50

Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

~CoD

So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
So he only so the cause not the effect as it were, I wonderful if it took the preborn to perceive it's fullness. And re preventing the Second Jihad, IIRC the only possibility for that was when the Fremen troop were returning to Sietch Tabr, or was is it Cave of Birds, for the first time and it required the death of everyone whom was there.


I think you're right about it being Cave of Bird and yes, the whole troup would have had to die for word of the messiah not to get out.

Leto's prescience was orders of magnitude greater than Paul's it seems. Either Paul chose not to look or couldn't. However, the extinction would have occured before the time of Leto's death so your guess is as good as mine. Could Paul see 3,500 years into the future? There're no accounts of him looking even remotely that far into the future.


Wouldn't it be logical to assume Paul couldn't see any further then Leto's birth at all? Prescience clouded by an even greater oracle?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 11:54

Serkanner wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

~CoD

So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
So he only so the cause not the effect as it were, I wonderful if it took the preborn to perceive it's fullness. And re preventing the Second Jihad, IIRC the only possibility for that was when the Fremen troop were returning to Sietch Tabr, or was is it Cave of Birds, for the first time and it required the death of everyone whom was there.


I think you're right about it being Cave of Bird and yes, the whole troup would have had to die for word of the messiah not to get out.

Leto's prescience was orders of magnitude greater than Paul's it seems. Either Paul chose not to look or couldn't. However, the extinction would have occured before the time of Leto's death so your guess is as good as mine. Could Paul see 3,500 years into the future? There're no accounts of him looking even remotely that far into the future.


Wouldn't it be logical to assume Paul couldn't see any further then Leto's birth at all? Prescience clouded by an even greater oracle?


No, He just didn't see Leto. His Vision wasn't completely blinded until Leto was born and Duncan told him about it.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Serkanner » 12 Nov 2009 12:30

Freakzilla wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Paul saw the Golden Path but never saw the extinction of humanity.

"I cannot lie to you any more than I could lie to myself," Paul said. "I
know this. Every man should have such an auditor. I will only ask this one
thing: is the Typhoon Struggle necessary?"
"It's that or humans will be extinguished."
Paul heard the truth in Leto's words, spoke in a low voice which
acknowledged the greater breadth of his son's vision. "I did not see that among
the choices."

~CoD

So to him, the Golden Path was just an extremely cruel lesson.
So he only so the cause not the effect as it were, I wonderful if it took the preborn to perceive it's fullness. And re preventing the Second Jihad, IIRC the only possibility for that was when the Fremen troop were returning to Sietch Tabr, or was is it Cave of Birds, for the first time and it required the death of everyone whom was there.


I think you're right about it being Cave of Bird and yes, the whole troup would have had to die for word of the messiah not to get out.

Leto's prescience was orders of magnitude greater than Paul's it seems. Either Paul chose not to look or couldn't. However, the extinction would have occured before the time of Leto's death so your guess is as good as mine. Could Paul see 3,500 years into the future? There're no accounts of him looking even remotely that far into the future.


Wouldn't it be logical to assume Paul couldn't see any further then Leto's birth at all? Prescience clouded by an even greater oracle?


No, He just didn't see Leto. His Vision wasn't completely blinded until Leto was born and Duncan told him about it.


You are right, I remember now Paul seeing Ghanima but not Leto. Duncan said something like: "Are you now truly blind?" ... correct?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Idahopotato » 12 Nov 2009 12:39

I always wondered why he couldn't see Leto. In his vision, it was Ghanima that would rule for thousands of years, not Leto.

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 12:43

My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Idahopotato » 12 Nov 2009 12:48

Freakzilla wrote:My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.


Along that topic, Hayt's programming was such that when Paul uttered the phrase "she's gone" it would kick in. How did the BT know that he would say that? It seems like a rather large gamble placing all your hopes on a phrase that may or may not come.

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 13:05

Idahopotato wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.


Along that topic, Hayt's programming was such that when Paul uttered the phrase "she's gone" it would kick in. How did the BT know that he would say that? It seems like a rather large gamble placing all your hopes on a phrase that may or may not come.


Good question.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Nov 2009 16:24

Freakzilla wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.


Along that topic, Hayt's programming was such that when Paul uttered the phrase "she's gone" it would kick in. How did the BT know that he would say that? It seems like a rather large gamble placing all your hopes on a phrase that may or may not come.


Good question.


Did the dwarf have prescience?
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 16:40

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.


Along that topic, Hayt's programming was such that when Paul uttered the phrase "she's gone" it would kick in. How did the BT know that he would say that? It seems like a rather large gamble placing all your hopes on a phrase that may or may not come.


Good question.


Did the dwarf have prescience?


Yes, but he shouldn't have been able to see Paul, a greater prescient.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Nov 2009 16:47

Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.


Along that topic, Hayt's programming was such that when Paul uttered the phrase "she's gone" it would kick in. How did the BT know that he would say that? It seems like a rather large gamble placing all your hopes on a phrase that may or may not come.


Good question.


Did the dwarf have prescience?


Yes, but he shouldn't have been able to see Paul, a greater prescient.


Good point. I feel like I should know the answer to this one having just read the book... but I don't.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Idahopotato » 12 Nov 2009 18:01

Maybe the BT version of the KH told them, you know, before he offed himself.

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 12 Nov 2009 18:36

Still should have been blocked by Paul's prescience, remember even Paul was blocked by a mere navagator.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby SandChigger » 12 Nov 2009 18:42

Maybe they were hoping that some random Other Memory of an ancestor at a rock concert would kick in and he'd start singing...

She's Gone Oh I, Oh I'd
Better learn how to face it.
She's Gone Oh I, Oh I'd
Pay the devil to replace her.
She's Gone ... what went wrong?

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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Serkanner » 12 Nov 2009 18:47

SandChigger wrote:Maybe they were hoping that some random Other Memory of an ancestor at a rock concert would kick in and he'd start singing...

She's Gone Oh I, Oh I'd
Better learn how to face it.
She's Gone Oh I, Oh I'd
Pay the devil to replace her.
She's Gone ... what went wrong?


Had to google it and still doesn't ring my bell.
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Re: "Paul is a weakling and a coward"

Postby Freakzilla » 12 Nov 2009 19:17

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Idahopotato wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:My bad, it was Tandis who first told Paul he had twins and it was Harah who asked if he was truely blind.

When Hayt heard of Chani's death, that was the instant his programming to kill Paul kicked in and didn't say much after that until his memories were restored.


Along that topic, Hayt's programming was such that when Paul uttered the phrase "she's gone" it would kick in. How did the BT know that he would say that? It seems like a rather large gamble placing all your hopes on a phrase that may or may not come.


Good question.


Did the dwarf have prescience?


Yes, but he shouldn't have been able to see Paul, a greater prescient.


Good point. I feel like I should know the answer to this one having just read the book... but I don't.


I don't think this is an answer. Maybe it was the traditional way out of the BT trap.
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Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman


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