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Daniel and Marty

Posted: 26 Aug 2009 16:23
by Slugger
Here's something I was thinking about:

Let's assume that Frank Herbert had intended them to be machines. But instead of those two abominations (Erasmus and Omnius), what if Daniel & Marty were more like the humanoid Cylons from Moore's series? In Heretics and Chapterhouse, we have evidence of the weakening of the prohibitions of the Butlerian Jihad (Clairby being cyborged, those autonomous service mechs the Honored Matres employed on Junction). We know that Ix pursued technologies that flaunted the BJ and that the Bene Tleilax were capable of modification of the human form (they engineered their form, implanted that metallic element in their skin to repel scanners). So, what if D&M are renegade experiments between the factions that Ix and BT sent out into the Scattering? Could explain why Masters mistake them for Face Dancers and the impressive technology they seem to possess.

Thoughts?

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 26 Aug 2009 17:38
by Freakzilla
The only thing different you added was Ix's involvement.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 26 Aug 2009 17:40
by SandRider
Let's assume that Frank Herbert had intended them to be machines.


can't begin to even do that.

Image

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 26 Aug 2009 19:42
by Slugger
SandRider wrote:
Let's assume that Frank Herbert had intended them to be machines.


can't begin to even do that.


I'm not looking to justify the HacksTwain's change of identity. It was just an idea to flesh out: they could be bio-mechanical Face Dancers, or the BT based their experiment upon the FD genome. I know that there is no evidence in the book to corroborate any alliance between Ix and BT out in the Scattering, but that's how I thought it might've come about.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 26 Aug 2009 20:02
by Sandwurm88
BH and KJA said themselves the fact that M and D are robots was their invention. They will always be Independent Face Dancers to me.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 26 Aug 2009 21:00
by Redstar
I could see an alliance between the Tleilax and Ixians to produce organic-machines to get around the BJ proscriptions, since that's a still relatively un-cliched science-fiction theme and does go along with the Dune universe at least mildly, but it should be reserved for (good) fanfiction. Daniel and Marty were advanced Face Dancers, and that's all there really is to it... You could argue that they are a metaphor for organic-machines, which is is technically true since the Tleilax were basically doing that under that mentality, but, again, fanfiction.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 04:51
by E. LeGuille
I don't ever see any sort of cooperation among the Ix and Tilaxeu on that level. Mostly because the religious insider-fanaticism of the BT prevents them from even considering anyone else as either an ally or accomplice. No, the only thing I could see is the Ix being destroyed by the BT. Everything suggests, even outside of the legends and house trilogies, that there is a long-grown hatred of Ix by the BT and vice versa. There was some technology exchange, I am sure, but nothing like that.

No, the BT would have an inquisition in name of the Honored Matres, maybe. But perhaps the old enemy was in fact always intended to be the Thinking Machines, just not the way it was played out in the other books. Perhaps it was more the re-innovation of thinking machines with a lifting of the BJ rules against it. Hm? With this leaving at the end of it, the feeling like this has all happened before, and may continue to happen? Everyone struggles to survive against them, unites, over generations become slaves of the machines, and the a Sarena Butler moment happens, but in the future? Where it all seems to start Dune again... And that would be good enough as an end. A lesson of, "Take History to Heart." But realizing, we've all played this disco before... we'll all play it again. The pieces are different, but the game is the same.

As far as the worms? They'd find them again. Over time.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 05:09
by Lundse
Slugger wrote:Let's assume that Frank Herbert had intended them to be machines.
...
I'm not looking to justify the HacksTwain's change of identity. It was just an idea to flesh out: they could be bio-mechanical Face Dancers, or the BT based their experiment upon the FD genome. I know that there is no evidence in the book to corroborate any alliance between Ix and BT out in the Scattering, but that's how I thought it might've come about.


The problem I have with this is there is no reason to assume anything more than what we are told. M&D have abilities in line with facedancers and other characters which they directly reference having "absorbed" - they have zero abilities which hint at anything mechanic. No reason to assume they are cyborgs, whatsoever - might as well speculate they have have absorbed some aliens or are Scientology-thetans.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 05:15
by Lundse
E. LeGuille wrote:But perhaps the old enemy was in fact always intended to be the Thinking Machines, just not the way it was played out in the other books.


Reassuring faces. That thought aroused Idaho's suspicions because now he recognized the familiarity. They looked somewhat like Face Dancers, even to the pug noses.
He leaned forward but the vision kept its distance. “Face Dancers,” he whispered.


“They had a Tleilaxu Master, too,” Marty said.”I saw him when they went under the net. I would have so liked to study another Master.”
“Don't see why. Always whistling at us, always making it necessary to stomp them down. I don't like treating Masters that wayand you know it! If it weren't for them…”


"...They [masters] have such a hard time accepting that Face Dancers can be independent of them.”
“I don't see why. It's a natural consequence. They gave us the power to absorb the memories and experiences of other people. Gather enough of those and…”
“It's personas we take, Marty.”
“Whatever. The Masters should've known we would gather enough of them one day to make our own decisions about our own future.”



I think it is pretty obvious what M&D were supposed to be. Haven't heard anyone try to argue how these quotes can be read to accomodate them being machines, much less Omnious and Erasmus.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 05:31
by E. LeGuille
So, hold on. This suggests that Daniel and Marty, the idea of Independent Face Dancers.... that's what the enemy was? Intersting... So, you could say... Have a Jihad on shape-shifters, or face-dancers? Oh, that's something I never thought of.

A ban of Thinking Machines, and Changeling Genetics.
The BT would be exterminated for sure if that were the case.

*sigh*

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 05:55
by Redstar
Lundse wrote:I think it is pretty obvious what M&D were supposed to be. Haven't heard anyone try to argue how these quotes can be read to accomodate them being machines, much less Omnious and Erasmus.

Like I said above, these advanced Face Dancers are like organic machines in that they were grown as product and with their ability to absorb personas are like computers being uploaded onto.

Though I doubt there'd be another jihad with the result of proscriptions against genetic tampering, since the war has already begun in a much different fashion and for far different reasons than the BJ did, and because the Duniverse would end up like Star Trek.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 05:58
by lotek
Redstar wrote:
Lundse wrote:I think it is pretty obvious what M&D were supposed to be. Haven't heard anyone try to argue how these quotes can be read to accomodate them being machines, much less Omnious and Erasmus.

Like I said above, these advanced Face Dancers are like organic machines in that they were grown as product and with their ability to absorb personas are like computers being uploaded onto.

Though I doubt there'd be another jihad with the result of proscriptions against genetic tampering, since the war has already begun in a much different fashion and for far different reasons than the BJ did, and because the Duniverse would end up like Star Trek.


it has now sadly enough...

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 06:44
by Lundse
E. LeGuille wrote:So, hold on. This suggests that Daniel and Marty, the idea of Independent Face Dancers.... that's what the enemy was? Intersting... So, you could say... Have a Jihad on shape-shifters, or face-dancers? Oh, that's something I never thought of.

A ban of Thinking Machines, and Changeling Genetics.
The BT would be exterminated for sure if that were the case.

*sigh*


I think it is a fair assumption that "the enemy with many faces" are the independent face dancers - if we look at the final books, that's certainly the only thing that suggests itself. If we assume that "the enemy with many faces" are the same as M&D, then it is the only explanation.

I do not know what the relevance to a Jihad is - are you suggesting this would have been the theme for Dune 7? The war against the IFD?

Personally, and this is pure conjecture, I think the IFD are too powerful to be an enemy to defeat. If Frank had written Dune 7, it would probably have been more about making a peace with them (sort of like the Honored Matres-situation was eventually resolved).

But in a Dune universe where independent face dancers are revealed as a threat, I think you are absolutely right that the Tleilax would have a hard time finding allies. Hm... actually, the changes in the Bene Gesserit/Bene Tleilax/Honored Matre/Guild/etc. power structure as the IFD is revealed would actually make an excellent Dune 7...

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 07:01
by Redstar
Lundse wrote:Hm... actually, the changes in the Bene Gesserit/Bene Tleilax/Honored Matre/Guild/etc. power structure as the IFD is revealed would actually make an excellent Dune 7...

And that's why we're all going to write it.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 14:54
by Drunken Idaho
E. LeGuille wrote:So, hold on. This suggests that Daniel and Marty, the idea of Independent Face Dancers.... that's what the enemy was? Intersting... So, you could say... Have a Jihad on shape-shifters, or face-dancers? Oh, that's something I never thought of.

A ban of Thinking Machines, and Changeling Genetics.
The BT would be exterminated for sure if that were the case.

*sigh*


Never read Chapterhouse?

I really don't see Dune 7 (or 8 or 9, for that matter) being about any kind of Jihad. To me, Heretics and Chapterhouse were all about the Old Empire awakening to the idea that the Scattering spreads out so far that no one could ever see, or fathom, the immense variety of new civilizations and technologies out there. However, that's not to say that no threat exists at all. I don't pretend to know exactly what Frank had planned, but I assume it was awesome.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 15:05
by Freakzilla
[SPOILER]

The BT were exterminated by the HM in HoD, except for one Master, Scytale, whom the BG rescued.

The Enemy, was an enemy of the HM, not the BG and they had no contact with Marty and Daniel except through Duncan's visions.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 15:12
by Seraphan
From the Norman Spinrad interview:
He told me he planned to end the series with a novel that would transition to a fictional universe of democratic rule. Never wrote it, of course. And Brian and Kevin certainly didn't from any 7 notes.

If this is to be believed then i dont think the independent face dancers were a major threat, only that the honoured matres had crossed them and came back to the old empire.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 15:14
by Frybread
Seraphan wrote:From the Norman Spinrad interview:
He told me he planned to end the series with a novel that would transition to a fictional universe of democratic rule. Never wrote it, of course. And Brian and Kevin certainly didn't from any 7 notes.

If this is to be believed then i dont think the independent face dancers were a major threat, only that the honoured matres had crossed them and came back to the old empire.


I think the threat of extinction from the Enemy was pretty much neutralized with the melding of HM and BG. That's the feeling I got from Ch:D, anyway.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 17:13
by SadisticCynic
Frybread wrote:
Seraphan wrote:From the Norman Spinrad interview:
He told me he planned to end the series with a novel that would transition to a fictional universe of democratic rule. Never wrote it, of course. And Brian and Kevin certainly didn't from any 7 notes.

If this is to be believed then i dont think the independent face dancers were a major threat, only that the honoured matres had crossed them and came back to the old empire.


I think the threat of extinction from the Enemy was pretty much neutralized with the melding of HM and BG. That's the feeling I got from Ch:D, anyway.


The threat of extinction was neutralised ('z' or 's'?) with Leto II. :wink:

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 18:07
by E. LeGuille
Drunken Idaho wrote:
E. LeGuille wrote:So, hold on. This suggests that Daniel and Marty, the idea of Independent Face Dancers.... that's what the enemy was? Intersting... So, you could say... Have a Jihad on shape-shifters, or face-dancers? Oh, that's something I never thought of.

A ban of Thinking Machines, and Changeling Genetics.
The BT would be exterminated for sure if that were the case.

*sigh*


Never read Chapterhouse?

I really don't see Dune 7 (or 8 or 9, for that matter) being about any kind of Jihad. To me, Heretics and Chapterhouse were all about the Old Empire awakening to the idea that the Scattering spreads out so far that no one could ever see, or fathom, the immense variety of new civilizations and technologies out there. However, that's not to say that no threat exists at all. I don't pretend to know exactly what Frank had planned, but I assume it was awesome.


No, to be honest, this is what happened.

I boght Frank's originals from a book vendor, but she only had up to God Emperor. That's fine, I said. So I got them. Then I bought the prequels, Heretics, and could not get ahold of Chapterhouse. My first five originals eventually got stolen, so I re-purchased the re-published versions. Funny how the originals were stolen but not my prequels...

I have not read Chapterhouse enough, no. I was actually guessing. I am trying to get through Heretics as I recently got ahold of it again. I have not finished Dune, but I read the spoilers. I just don't remember them.

My point about the Jihad, was that it would have made a relevant story. The IFD, being an enemy hard to fight, is like fighting against terrorism. Terrorism is not a country, or a state. It is not an organization, it is a mentality of those who do those actions, because they believe they are right. There is no evil, there is no right and wrong. There just is. And a war with the IFD would force the BG/HM/BT/Guild, etc. To reconsider thier allies and enemies, while a Jihad is raised, the BT are destroyed along with the IFD, and the universe goes into a democracy, bound by a new rule: No genetics like that of the BT. Much like the ban on thinking machines, there would be that new standard for these post-BT Duneiversians.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 19:02
by Freakzilla
Seraphan wrote:From the Norman Spinrad interview:
He told me he planned to end the series with a novel that would transition to a fictional universe of democratic rule. Never wrote it, of course. And Brian and Kevin certainly didn't from any 7 notes.

If this is to be believed then i dont think the independent face dancers were a major threat, only that the honoured matres had crossed them and came back to the old empire.


You don't need Spinerad's quote to know that, man. That was the point of The Scattering, nothing would ever again threaten all of humanity.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 19:05
by Freakzilla
E. LeGuille wrote:Funny how the originals were stolen but not my prequels...


Nah, the theif just had good taste.

I have not read Chapterhouse enough, no. I was actually guessing. I am trying to get through Heretics as I recently got ahold of it again. I have not finished Dune, but I read the spoilers. I just don't remember them.

My point about the Jihad, was that it would have made a relevant story. The IFD, being an enemy hard to fight, is like fighting against terrorism. Terrorism is not a country, or a state. It is not an organization, it is a mentality of those who do those actions, because they believe they are right. There is no evil, there is no right and wrong. There just is. And a war with the IFD would force the BG/HM/BT/Guild, etc. To reconsider thier allies and enemies, while a Jihad is raised, the BT are destroyed along with the IFD, and the universe goes into a democracy, bound by a new rule: No genetics like that of the BT. Much like the ban on thinking machines, there would be that new standard for these post-BT Duneiversians.


Couldn't happen, humankind is too spread out. That's the point.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 19:20
by Hunchback Jack
I wonder whether FH intended the SFDs to destroy the BG/HM regardless. After all, he destroyed Dune and the BT, and the BG do seem a bit anachronistic. Perhaps having the elements of the Scattering come back and wipe away the last vestiges of the pre-Golden-Path empire would have been an interesting conclusion.

Of course, it's been too long since I read the originals for me to back this up at all. And I've no idea what his plans were for the no-ship.

Full o' shit, as usual, in other words. :)

HBJ

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 19:24
by A Thing of Eternity
I have a hunch it was going to end with the total destruction of the Old Empire and BG, to hammer home the point that the Golden Path was the be all and end all of human survival, and even if "all" was lost (from the reader's point of veiw the old empire is all emotionally) it means nothing to human survival.

Re: Daniel and Marty

Posted: 27 Aug 2009 19:28
by SadisticCynic
A Thing of Eternity wrote:I have a hunch it was going to end with the total destruction of the Old Empire and BG, to hammer home the point that the Golden Path was the be all and end all of human survival, and even if "all" was lost (from the reader's point of veiw the old empire is all emotionally) it means nothing to human survival.


I like that. Its a sad ending (which I would enjoy) but one that makes sense.