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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Aug 2009 09:55

Slugger wrote:Do you think that Frank would have destroyed the Old Empire, like he destroyed Dune? Would Chapterhouse be the next planet to be exterminated, since the Old Empire might begin to focus on it as they did with Dune?


It pretty much was destroyed and with the destruction of Rakis and the BT there was nothing tying people to it any longer. If not it's destruction, it's status as an empire was finished. IF the BG-HM merger was successful, the BG would spread out into The Scattering.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby loremaster » 28 Aug 2009 13:46

I dont know, i think the BG were destined to survive for at least a while longer.

It seemed like Leto had been grooming them. The Bene Gesserit post-GEoD are trying their best with their little schemes, but Odrade herself says every reverend mother "would not block the tyrant's golden path" for the sisterhoods survival. The message on the wall, sheanna, the merging of the HM with the Bene Gesserit (who you have to remember are all Atreides too). It seems like the Bene Gesserit had a part to play yet, it might well have been to die in some dramatic fashion to continue the divergence of the species however, i concede that would be a most Leto-ish of fates to prompt them into.

Question - What's the difference between Sirafi and M+D. Sirafi is a handler? who appears to have SOME shape changing abilities, whereas M+D appear to be able to absorb personas.

What is Sirafi? Just a scattered tleilaxu? She commands futars, futars were probably tleilaxu.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 28 Aug 2009 13:57

loremaster wrote:I dont know, i think the BG were destined to survive for at least a while longer.

It seemed like Leto had been grooming them. The Bene Gesserit post-GEoD are trying their best with their little schemes, but Odrade herself says every reverend mother "would not block the tyrant's golden path" for the sisterhoods survival. The message on the wall, sheanna, the merging of the HM with the Bene Gesserit (who you have to remember are all Atreides too). It seems like the Bene Gesserit had a part to play yet, it might well have been to die in some dramatic fashion to continue the divergence of the species however, i concede that would be a most Leto-ish of fates to prompt them into.

Question - What's the difference between Sirafi and M+D. Sirafi is a handler? who appears to have SOME shape changing abilities, whereas M+D appear to be able to absorb personas.

What is Sirafi? Just a scattered tleilaxu? She commands futars, futars were probably tleilaxu.


I assumed she was an IFD, just like M&D.

Remember, RM Lucilla got the impression she was a FD but just that, none of the regular signs were there.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby loremaster » 01 Sep 2009 17:11

I see the similarity. But M+D display abilities so far beyond Sirafi (who by all accounts was an independant-but-stunted face dancer).
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 01 Sep 2009 22:48

loremaster wrote:I see the similarity. But M+D display abilities so far beyond Sirafi (who by all accounts was an independant-but-stunted face dancer).


So... because Sirafi didn't display the limits of her abilities, you assume M&D couldn't walk around undetected? :?
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby loremaster » 03 Sep 2009 16:17

not at all. i suspect they might have been able to amongst normal people, assuming they have normal human bodies.... but to fool lucilla? a grade A+++ true reverend mother? different kettle of fish.

If you are capable of tricks like that, why micromanage and just "happen" to be there when the ghola turns up............. which is assuming the ghola duncan is even what they were so interested in, sure M+D were following him, but they didnt seem concerned when he escaped.

I honestly dont know, im devils advocating a bit. But phenomenal technological observation through no-fields at incredible distances, mentally, as is appears to be....

...didnt strike me as the sort of power sirafi contained, given her (to lucilla genuine) surprise at the numerous extra excitation points the bene gesserit new.

Sirafi struck me as a sort of prototype BG face dancer with SOME of their knowledge.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 03 Sep 2009 16:23

Maybe she had not yet absorbed enough personas yet? I believed M&D said that they only developed their own personalities after absorbing so many.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby SimonH » 03 Sep 2009 18:55

SandRider wrote:I believe "Dune 7" would have revolved around Marty & Daniel
teaching the Bene Geserit how to be human.


I like this. This seems to click with Leto's message to the BG. They needed to learn to love again and regain their humanity.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby SandRider » 16 Aug 2010 09:08

I am disappointed in you.

four pages of completely, 100% on-topic posts ?
with a bare minimum of Keith bashing ?
and real points made, Dune Scholarship advanced ?

meh.

well, I'll just leave this here to break all this up ....
y'all chew on this and somebody please explain it to me when I wake up ....

http://tau.solahpmo.com/viewtopic.php?f=621&t=1315


SB: Exactly. Um, the last few chapters of the book, when the identities of the old man and woman are revealed. I know that fans of your most recent Dune prequel trilogy, beginning with The Butlerian Jihad, they’re finally going to get to see two of their absolute favourite characters return, which is cause for great rejoicing. Omnius and Erasmus really serve as a bridge between the two eras, you know, the Butlerian Jihad and the current timeline. Um, I was wondering if you could tell us how that came about? At what point did you realize that these two couples, these essentially four characters were indeed two characters, that they were the same?

BH: Well, this is where ... Omnius and Erasmus are actually ... characters that Kevin and I created. Um, and, they were not based on any notes that we found of Frank Herbert's at all. But we combined those two characters that we created, that we ... and, these are concepts, it was a story concept that we threaded in, knowing we were heading for Hunters of Dune and Sandworms. We combined what we added ... our own concept to Frank Herbert's overview. And Frank Herbert's overview, then, is where we immersed these two characters.

KJA: Well, and Frank Herbert's ... the outline, and the .. the roadmap ... or the clues that he gave us ... told us basically the origin of the old man and the old woman, and where ... that it did tie all the way back to the Butlerian Jihad and that it did ... connect this whole vast story arc and epic history that he had come up with. Which is kind of one of the reasons why we had to do the Butlerian Jihad books before we could go all the way to Hunters and Sandworms, because we needed to lay this whole foundation. Now, that's one of the differences between our writing style and Frank Herbert's writing style is, he often left a lot of things ... unsaid, he put them kind of in the background, between the lines, and in fact, in Heretics of Dune, the planet Earth - I mean, the planet Arrakis is, is charred and basically destroyed, and all the life on it is supposedly killed. And he does that in-between chapters. He doesn't show it. And Brian and I, our writing style is kind of a more ... we want to show you things and do it onstage instead of offstage, and so, whereas Frank Herbert, if he had been around to write Dune 7, which, frankly, Brian and I would rather he had stayed around to write it so that we could read it like new fans instead of writing it. But he would have left a lot of the details in the background, and up to his readers to put together. And ... we kind of like to show everything instead.

And that's why we wanted to build this whole history, always knowing where it was going, because we’ve kind of joked at our book signings and our talks, that, once we found the outline, that, we knew what the secret was, but we weren’t going to tell anybody else [snigger] for a couple of years.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby aethereon » 16 Aug 2010 13:54

SandRider wrote:I am disappointed in you.

four pages of completely, 100% on-topic posts ?
with a bare minimum of Keith bashing ?
and real points made, Dune Scholarship advanced ?

meh.

well, I'll just leave this here to break all this up ....
y'all chew on this and somebody please explain it to me when I wake up ....

http://tau.solahpmo.com/viewtopic.php?f=621&t=1315


SB: Exactly. Um, the last few chapters of the book, when the identities of the old man and woman are revealed. I know that fans of your most recent Dune prequel trilogy, beginning with The Butlerian Jihad, they’re finally going to get to see two of their absolute favourite characters return, which is cause for great rejoicing. Omnius and Erasmus really serve as a bridge between the two eras, you know, the Butlerian Jihad and the current timeline. Um, I was wondering if you could tell us how that came about? At what point did you realize that these two couples, these essentially four characters were indeed two characters, that they were the same?

BH: Well, this is where ... Omnius and Erasmus are actually ... characters that Kevin and I created. Um, and, they were not based on any notes that we found of Frank Herbert's at all. But we combined those two characters that we created, that we ... and, these are concepts, it was a story concept that we threaded in, knowing we were heading for Hunters of Dune and Sandworms. We combined what we added ... our own concept to Frank Herbert's overview. And Frank Herbert's overview, then, is where we immersed these two characters.

KJA: Well, and Frank Herbert's ... the outline, and the .. the roadmap ... or the clues that he gave us ... told us basically the origin of the old man and the old woman, and where ... that it did tie all the way back to the Butlerian Jihad and that it did ... connect this whole vast story arc and epic history that he had come up with. Which is kind of one of the reasons why we had to do the Butlerian Jihad books before we could go all the way to Hunters and Sandworms, because we needed to lay this whole foundation. Now, that's one of the differences between our writing style and Frank Herbert's writing style is, he often left a lot of things ... unsaid, he put them kind of in the background, between the lines, and in fact, in Heretics of Dune, the planet Earth - I mean, the planet Arrakis is, is charred and basically destroyed, and all the life on it is supposedly killed. And he does that in-between chapters. He doesn't show it. And Brian and I, our writing style is kind of a more ... we want to show you things and do it onstage instead of offstage, and so, whereas Frank Herbert, if he had been around to write Dune 7, which, frankly, Brian and I would rather he had stayed around to write it so that we could read it like new fans instead of writing it. But he would have left a lot of the details in the background, and up to his readers to put together. And ... we kind of like to show everything instead.

And that's why we wanted to build this whole history, always knowing where it was going, because we’ve kind of joked at our book signings and our talks, that, once we found the outline, that, we knew what the secret was, but we weren’t going to tell anybody else [snigger] for a couple of years.



"Basically we came up with some shit, made it fit even if it meant 'officially' reinterpreting Dune as a whole, y'know - and passive-agressively force it down the throats of those who ACTUALLY READ DUNE THE FIRST ROUND."

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Superdog » 16 Aug 2010 15:17

There could have been some kind of Jihad in Dune 7, remember they were grooming Sheeana for that purpose.

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 16 Aug 2010 15:58

Superdog wrote:There could have been some kind of Jihad in Dune 7, remember they were grooming Sheeana for that purpose.


That religion (Leto's) was already in place, even in The Scattering.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Superdog » 16 Aug 2010 20:43

Freakzilla wrote:
Superdog wrote:There could have been some kind of Jihad in Dune 7, remember they were grooming Sheeana for that purpose.


That religion (Leto's) was already in place, even in The Scattering.


Wasn't the plan that Sheeana would show up and show them she could direct Sandworms and people would follow her? Like their old plan with the Kwisatz Haderach? Sheeana rejected it, but something might have come of it.

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 16 Aug 2010 20:51

Superdog wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Superdog wrote:There could have been some kind of Jihad in Dune 7, remember they were grooming Sheeana for that purpose.


That religion (Leto's) was already in place, even in The Scattering.


Wasn't the plan that Sheeana would show up and show them she could direct Sandworms and people would follow her? Like their old plan with the Kwisatz Haderach? Sheeana rejected it, but something might have come of it.


Oh yeah, the MP had billions and billions of followers lined up for her.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby aethereon » 19 Aug 2010 09:12

I don't support that the BG as a whole were meant to be destroyed. Their faction along with the others were transmuted through the efforts of the Tyrant and the GP.

I do make concessions that the BG as it was by the end of Leto II's reign was totally undermined, and that the contemporary vestiges of the BG at the time of Chapterhouse only remained only as a legacy - however totally stripped of original mission. Their entire ideas of a Kwisatz Haderach had become something of an antichrist figure as opposed to a savior or ultimate tool to wield against humanity.

This was central to Paul and Leto II's lessons. Paul made a feeble attempt in comparison to his own spawn, but Paul employed a more indirect grass-roots method.

Leto II accepted the entire mantle of a KH - balls to the wall.

I'll connect to M&D shortly - so please bear with me... I feel required to outline some things (by memory as best I can) about Leto II and his reign:

His "yellow brick road" was the course of his life, I'm fairly confident with that. He was his own wizard behind the curtain. I believe that was succinctly demonstrated with his demise and the fall of his empire involving his relationship (or lack therof) with Hwi. He was fallible in the most basic way, and old and tired too.

He achieved a choke-hold restructuring of no fewer than the following: the Fremen, the BG and breeding programs, the Guild and foldspace, IX and taboo tech, the BT and their demise, Dune itself (by seeing through the terraforming events to conclusion personally, and beginning of the ecological recession) and the super-people (his immediate family including himself). The scattering was a result of single-handed reappropration of ideals throughout the masses.

Was it Darwi Odrade that visited his no-chamber centuries later and confirmed him (I'll have to check that myself, later)? The very notion that it was SHE who explored his chambers confirmed his GP.

The HM later confirmed the existence of Unknown Enemy out beyond the fringe of inner empire to the horizons of the scattering itself. They reconfirmed the GP by heralding a jihad of their own against the neo old empire. This was during and following the utter demise of the BT... The HM played the most significant role in eliminating their stronghold, right? As "awakened axlotl tanks" they were aware of something very nearly associated with it outside of their control?**

Sheana was in-bourne with more than just wormsong. She, Duncan, the gholas (all in general), and the Jews were a huge part of what would have defined the other enemy. They may have been the remaining vestiges of what the GP was out to eliminate from the start. If I could speak for Leto, perhaps it would be: " I fixed 99% of humanity's fuck ups, but the tools I used must be eliminated."

Furthermore, and back to M&D** - there were obviously things Leto felt a need to arm Humanity as a whole against. Perhaps it was his own "tools," perhaps it was M&D and their click (if any), or imperial government period. The other unknown enemy was not for damned certain a machine of any sort in terms as independent threat to humanity as a whole.

I believe Leto was living an example for good/bad/ugly to be something that humanity would absolutely never forget, and if they did - spread them out to a point where consolidation on any level would be impossible. I believe his GP was with the intention of setting an example to cultivate individual resourcefulness across the board to deal with anything - especially if it was a manifest threat to all of humanity created by its factions. He was also using religious fervence against humanity to demonstrate the dangers of it.

In this case, the essence of the original BG mission was accomplished, without them.

I agree that there may be something to that idea of ideal democracy that has been previously mentioned, and a need to "obliterate" any possible means of untouchable/otherworldly domination.**

EXCELLENT THREAD.

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby SandChigger » 19 Aug 2010 11:01

aethereon wrote:Was it Darwi Odrade that visited his no-chamber centuries later and confirmed him (I'll have to check that myself, later)? The very notion that it was SHE who explored his chambers confirmed his GP.

She found his spice hoard at Sietch Tabr. His no-chamber at Dar-es-Balat was discovered several hundred years before the beginning of Heretics. Leto could not know who exactly would discover/explore the hoard chamber because he could not "see" her: Odrade had the Siona Gene. But he could know that only a BG Reverend Mother would be able to discover the hoard because of the hints and directions he left.

The HM later confirmed the existence of Unknown Enemy out beyond the fringe of inner empire to the horizons of the scattering itself.

Huh?

They reconfirmed the GP by heralding a jihad of their own against the neo old empire.

The Golden Path has nothing to do with jihad.

This was during and following the utter demise of the BT... The HM played the most significant role in eliminating their stronghold, right? As "awakened axlotl tanks" they were aware of something very nearly associated with it outside of their control?**

The HM did eliminate the BT by destroying their worlds. As for them being "awakened axlotl tanks", that is McDune heresy. Blasphemy!

Sheana was in-bourne with more than just wormsong. She, Duncan, the gholas (all in general), and the Jews were a huge part of what would have defined the other enemy. They may have been the remaining vestiges of what the GP was out to eliminate from the start. If I could speak for Leto, perhaps it would be: " I fixed 99% of humanity's fuck ups, but the tools I used must be eliminated."

The only things the Golden Path was "out to eliminate from the start" were the complete extinction of the human species and control of the whole species by one individual. I do not know this Leto you would speak for.

Furthermore, and back to M&D** - there were obviously things Leto felt a need to arm Humanity as a whole against. Perhaps it was his own "tools," perhaps it was M&D and their click (if any), or imperial government period. The other unknown enemy was not for damned certain a machine of any sort in terms as independent threat to humanity as a whole.

Leto did not feel a need to arm Humanity against anything except species-threatening disasters (man-made or natural) and future "predators" like himself. He believed that his Golden Path was what needed to be done. He did not micromanage by trying to foresee every threat that would ever arise.

I believe Leto was living an example for good/bad/ugly to be something that humanity would absolutely never forget, and if they did - spread them out to a point where consolidation on any level would be impossible. I believe his GP was with the intention of setting an example to cultivate individual resourcefulness across the board to deal with anything - especially if it was a manifest threat to all of humanity created by its factions. He was also using religious fervence against humanity to demonstrate the dangers of it.

Basically. But there could never again be a threat to ALL of humanity after The Scattering.

In this case, the essence of the original BG mission was accomplished, without them.

But he foresaw a role for them in his future universe, which is why he didn't eliminate them outright and why he had to ensure that there would be worms and spice in the future. :)

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Aug 2010 11:02

:clap:
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Apjak » 19 Aug 2010 13:55

SandChigger wrote:The HM did eliminate the BT by destroying their worlds. As for them being "awakened axlotl tanks", that is McDune heresy. Blasphemy!


This is one, if not the only one, thing I think is probably right in the Hunters/Sandworms failure. I think the best explanation for the other-memory gaps that HM have, is that their ancestors had no memories to pass on.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Serkanner » 19 Aug 2010 14:11

Apjak wrote:
SandChigger wrote:The HM did eliminate the BT by destroying their worlds. As for them being "awakened axlotl tanks", that is McDune heresy. Blasphemy!


This is one, if not the only one, thing I think is probably right in the Hunters/Sandworms failure. I think the best explanation for the other-memory gaps that HM have, is that their ancestors had no memories to pass on.


Nope it is not. They are the descendants of Fish Speakers and Bene Gesserit.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby aethereon » 19 Aug 2010 16:45

Eviscerated (me).

are the awakened tanks from hunters/sandworms? holy crap (this is why im brushing up). I beg pardon.

well, good to see that there are volunteer forces keeping the path straight and clear.

The HM later confirmed the existence of Unknown Enemy out beyond the fringe of inner empire to the horizons of the scattering itself.
weren't they running from something and retreating back to inner empire to gather resources and prepare?

They reconfirmed the GP by heralding a jihad of their own against the neo old empire.
Should have chosen a better word than "jihad" see above. By "confirm" I might have said "portrayed an example of the necessity of the GP - resist consolidation" (better)?

I knew I should have gotten my weight up a bit more before posting. hehe. I try to cut it short and expect to be understood without splitting every atom. Thing is: That's hard to expect if I can't keep my facts straight.

Thanks for the adjustment

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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 19 Aug 2010 17:27

Serkanner wrote:
Apjak wrote:
SandChigger wrote:The HM did eliminate the BT by destroying their worlds. As for them being "awakened axlotl tanks", that is McDune heresy. Blasphemy!


This is one, if not the only one, thing I think is probably right in the Hunters/Sandworms failure. I think the best explanation for the other-memory gaps that HM have, is that their ancestors had no memories to pass on.


Nope it is not. They are the descendants of Fish Speakers and Bene Gesserit.



Wasn't that conjecture on the part of the BG? NO BG EVER returned from The Scattering.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby MrFlibble » 19 Aug 2010 20:24

Freakzilla wrote:
Serkanner wrote:
Apjak wrote:
SandChigger wrote:The HM did eliminate the BT by destroying their worlds. As for them being "awakened axlotl tanks", that is McDune heresy. Blasphemy!


This is one, if not the only one, thing I think is probably right in the Hunters/Sandworms failure. I think the best explanation for the other-memory gaps that HM have, is that their ancestors had no memories to pass on.


Nope it is not. They are the descendants of Fish Speakers and Bene Gesserit.



Wasn't that conjecture on the part of the BG? NO BG EVER returned from The Scattering.

They got confirmation when Murbella's memories were awakened:
But where could they go? It was a universe beset by Honored Matres and other forces. It was a universe of scattered planets peopled mostly by humans who wanted only to live out their lives in peace -- accepting Bene Gesserit guidance in some places, squirming under Honored Matre suppression in many regions, mostly hoping to govern themselves as best they could, the perennial dream of democracy, and then there were always the unknowns. And always the lesson of the Honored Matres! Murbella's clues said Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in extremis formed the Honored Matres. Fish Speaker democracy become Honored Matre autocracy! The clues were too numerous to ignore.

Fish Speakers, that was the revelation the Bene Gesserit absorbed with fascination. They had suspected, but Murbella gave them confirmation. Fish Speaker democracy become Honored Matre autocracy. No more doubts.

"I presume we're both seeking a basis for understanding, trying to find similarities between us."

This brought the orange glare. "You may try to understand us but we have no need to understand you."

"Both of us come from societies of women."

"It is dangerous to think of us as your offshoots!"

But Murbella's evidence says you are. Formed in the Scattering by Fish Speakers and Reverend Mothers in extremis.
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby SandChigger » 19 Aug 2010 20:59

Apjak wrote:This is one, if not the only one, thing I think is probably right in the Hunters/Sandworms failure. I think the best explanation for the other-memory gaps that HM have, is that their ancestors had no memories to pass on.

I admit that the idea seemed to have a strong FH vibe to me, too, when I first read it. And for all we can know at present, it may actually be based on something they found in his notes.

The problem, though, is that pesky fact that ancestral memory is genetic in the Duniverse. Completely wiping a woman's memories and her entire personality when she is made a tank (if that's really what occurs) should not affect her genetic (somatic cellular) memory. If the idea really was FH's and he had decided to include it in one of the novels, I feel certain he would have provided a much more convincing DUNE-like explanation than the "hysterical feminine solidarity amnesia" bullshit we got in McDune. I like to think it would have involved what the BT were masters at: genetic engineering. Remember Scytale's ditty: "Tleilaxu sperm does not talk." If the BT Masters engineered their own cells to be opaque to BG investigation, why would they not do the same to the cells of the women they gave to the BG?

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Freakzilla
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Freakzilla » 20 Aug 2010 09:07

I kind of like the female BT cause for the gaps too, but for the reason that SC mentions above, and as mention in CH:D(?), the offspring of BG and captured BT males had inaccessible OM.
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Re: Daniel and Marty

Postby Superdog » 20 Aug 2010 10:47

When you put it like that, it does make a bit of sense: Rogue BT captured BG and then force bred them with BT men, explaining the wall in OM.


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