Oedipus
- othaderak
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Oedipus
Paul is Oedipus.
I don't wanna get particularly Freudian with Paul, since most of Freudian psychology seems to stem from ole Siggy pushing his own dilemmas and perceptions upon the psyches of others. Nope, I'm talking Sophocles. Anyway:
Like Oedipus, Paul is born royalty. Specifically, Greek royalty with very ancient ties- Oedipus from Thebes and the Atreides/Atreus family from Mycenae. This isn't based off any of that cymek garbage, I just go where the etymology takes me No doubt this connection was intended by FH, based solely in his breadth of knowledge regarding both etymology and classical literature.
The story arc of Dune to Children of Dune is very much a traditional, Sophoclean tragedy, sharing many parallels with Oedipus the King in particular. Firstly, Paul is seen and used as a tool by many different entities- the Bene Gesserit, the Fremen, the plotters during his reign as emperor- but the chief agent in toying with him is Fate. That he can see the future, or rather, the futures that could be, offered no real comfort. Much as the oracle at Delphi made nebulous predictions that were sometimes accomplished by means out of the recipient's control, Paul was trapped. Little things were easy to see and manipulate, but he knew two things would occur in ways that he couldn't stop: the Jihad and his eventual death. The Jihad would continue with or without him, but down every avenue of the future, he saw his own death.
Secondly, both had a glorious reign followed by a terrible fall from power and grace. Oedipus' downfall was partly foretold, but this didn't save him from punishment; his fate was sealed by pride. The same could be argued for Paul. After all, it was an exercise in pride that took him from the Keep to Otheym's home and the stone burner. In this way, both Oedipus and Paul crowned their demise by gouging out their own eyes. Also of note is the connection between Paul and Tiresias, the blind prophet summoned by Oedipus at the beginning of Oedipus the King. Furthering this connection is the fact that both Paul and Tiresias could play female psychological roles: Paul was the male Bene Gesserit while Tiresias was a periodic transsexual. As a result of their blindness and also as a form of punishment, both were forced to leave their kingdoms to wander for the rest of their lives.
In death, both would be memorialized by their children and absolved of guilt by the gods, in Oedipus' case, and the people in Paul's. The Golden Path and subsequent Scattering made Muad'dib's Jihad look like a pleasantry in comparison and in this way, he gained the veneration he deserved.
...
I think I was gonna say something else or make another point, but I've been afk for so long (I wrote the first part of it a couple days ago) that I think I forgot it...
Either way, discuss.
P.S. It's Freud time!
Alia and Ghanima are the literal embodiment (minus the wish to kill and replace the same sex parent, hopefully ) of the Elektra Complex- Alia, because she inherited Jessica's OM about Leto and Ghanima, because she has Jessica and Chani's OM.
Leto II, same thing with Paul's OM about Chani.
I don't wanna get particularly Freudian with Paul, since most of Freudian psychology seems to stem from ole Siggy pushing his own dilemmas and perceptions upon the psyches of others. Nope, I'm talking Sophocles. Anyway:
Like Oedipus, Paul is born royalty. Specifically, Greek royalty with very ancient ties- Oedipus from Thebes and the Atreides/Atreus family from Mycenae. This isn't based off any of that cymek garbage, I just go where the etymology takes me No doubt this connection was intended by FH, based solely in his breadth of knowledge regarding both etymology and classical literature.
The story arc of Dune to Children of Dune is very much a traditional, Sophoclean tragedy, sharing many parallels with Oedipus the King in particular. Firstly, Paul is seen and used as a tool by many different entities- the Bene Gesserit, the Fremen, the plotters during his reign as emperor- but the chief agent in toying with him is Fate. That he can see the future, or rather, the futures that could be, offered no real comfort. Much as the oracle at Delphi made nebulous predictions that were sometimes accomplished by means out of the recipient's control, Paul was trapped. Little things were easy to see and manipulate, but he knew two things would occur in ways that he couldn't stop: the Jihad and his eventual death. The Jihad would continue with or without him, but down every avenue of the future, he saw his own death.
Secondly, both had a glorious reign followed by a terrible fall from power and grace. Oedipus' downfall was partly foretold, but this didn't save him from punishment; his fate was sealed by pride. The same could be argued for Paul. After all, it was an exercise in pride that took him from the Keep to Otheym's home and the stone burner. In this way, both Oedipus and Paul crowned their demise by gouging out their own eyes. Also of note is the connection between Paul and Tiresias, the blind prophet summoned by Oedipus at the beginning of Oedipus the King. Furthering this connection is the fact that both Paul and Tiresias could play female psychological roles: Paul was the male Bene Gesserit while Tiresias was a periodic transsexual. As a result of their blindness and also as a form of punishment, both were forced to leave their kingdoms to wander for the rest of their lives.
In death, both would be memorialized by their children and absolved of guilt by the gods, in Oedipus' case, and the people in Paul's. The Golden Path and subsequent Scattering made Muad'dib's Jihad look like a pleasantry in comparison and in this way, he gained the veneration he deserved.
...
I think I was gonna say something else or make another point, but I've been afk for so long (I wrote the first part of it a couple days ago) that I think I forgot it...
Either way, discuss.
P.S. It's Freud time!
Alia and Ghanima are the literal embodiment (minus the wish to kill and replace the same sex parent, hopefully ) of the Elektra Complex- Alia, because she inherited Jessica's OM about Leto and Ghanima, because she has Jessica and Chani's OM.
Leto II, same thing with Paul's OM about Chani.
- SadisticCynic
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Re: Oedipus
I've not much knowledge of Greek mythology, but that sounds like a good comparison. With regard to the Atreides/Atreus thing, we can probably be sure this was intentional because in Alia's Other Memory Agamemnon (the Greek general) is present.
(By the way, what is the Elektra complex?)
(By the way, what is the Elektra complex?)
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
- SandRider
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Re: Oedipus
great comic-book movie adaption
starring Jennifer Garner's tits.
starring Jennifer Garner's tits.
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
- othaderak
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Re: Oedipus
Also, it's the female version of the Oedipus complex, wherein the son not only wants to marry/sleep with his mother but kill his father. With Elektra, it's the daughter wanting to kill the mother to marry/sleep with her father.SandRider wrote:great comic-book movie adaption
starring Jennifer Garner's tits.
In other words,
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Re: Oedipus
I like your take on it, othaderak. When I was in college I wrote a paper examining differing myths in comparison to Dune: Contemplating the Oracle-Speaker in “Oedipus the King,” “Agamemnon,” and “The Chronicles of Dune”. It was an anthropology "Myth and Folklore" course so not only did I examine the oracle in those stories but also had to write about the historical origins of the Oracle at Delphi.
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie
- othaderak
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Re: Oedipus
Thanks! My senior year humanities class read Oedipus the King and Dune back to back, but we didn't have to do any comparison essays, just a short extra credit paper for Dune. Easiest extra credit assignment everTleszer wrote:I like your take on it, othaderak. When I was in college I wrote a paper examining differing myths in comparison to Dune: Contemplating the Oracle-Speaker in “Oedipus the King,” “Agamemnon,” and “The Chronicles of Dune”. It was an anthropology "Myth and Folklore" course so not only did I examine the oracle in those stories but also had to write about the historical origins of the Oracle at Delphi.
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Re: Oedipus
Send those papers to me, guys!!!!
- Freakzilla
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Re: Oedipus
Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceedng fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.othaderak wrote:Paul is Oedipus.
I don't wanna get particularly Freudian with Paul, since most of Freudian psychology seems to stem from ole Siggy pushing his own dilemmas and perceptions upon the psyches of others. Nope, I'm talking Sophocles. Anyway:
Like Oedipus, Paul is born royalty. Specifically, Greek royalty with very ancient ties- Oedipus from Thebes and the Atreides/Atreus family from Mycenae. This isn't based off any of that cymek garbage, I just go where the etymology takes me No doubt this connection was intended by FH, based solely in his breadth of knowledge regarding both etymology and classical literature.
The story arc of Dune to Children of Dune is very much a traditional, Sophoclean tragedy, sharing many parallels with Oedipus the King in particular. Firstly, Paul is seen and used as a tool by many different entities- the Bene Gesserit, the Fremen, the plotters during his reign as emperor- but the chief agent in toying with him is Fate. That he can see the future, or rather, the futures that could be, offered no real comfort. Much as the oracle at Delphi made nebulous predictions that were sometimes accomplished by means out of the recipient's control, Paul was trapped. Little things were easy to see and manipulate, but he knew two things would occur in ways that he couldn't stop: the Jihad and his eventual death. The Jihad would continue with or without him, but down every avenue of the future, he saw his own death.
Paul walked into the desert of his own free will, he was not forced.Secondly, both had a glorious reign followed by a terrible fall from power and grace. Oedipus' downfall was partly foretold, but this didn't save him from punishment; his fate was sealed by pride. The same could be argued for Paul. After all, it was an exercise in pride that took him from the Keep to Otheym's home and the stone burner. In this way, both Oedipus and Paul crowned their demise by gouging out their own eyes. Also of note is the connection between Paul and Tiresias, the blind prophet summoned by Oedipus at the beginning of Oedipus the King. Furthering this connection is the fact that both Paul and Tiresias could play female psychological roles: Paul was the male Bene Gesserit while Tiresias was a periodic transsexual. As a result of their blindness and also as a form of punishment, both were forced to leave their kingdoms to wander for the rest of their lives.
Paul's own freewill...
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- othaderak
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Re: Oedipus
I thought that was more in Dune Messiah than in the first oneFreakzilla wrote:
Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceding fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.
Exactly. Plus, once he'd lost prescience, he was totally blind and subject to Fremen law, requiring him to wander off into the desert. No one forced him, but if you think about it, no one really could. A perk of being the Emperor/Kwisatz Haderach, I suppose.Freakzilla wrote:
Paul walked into the desert of his own free will, he was not forced.
Paul's own freewill...
- Redstar
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Re: Oedipus
I take offense to that.othaderak wrote:Also, it's the female version of the Oedipus complex, wherein the son not only wants to marry/sleep with his mother but kill his father. With Elektra, it's the daughter wanting to kill the mother to marry/sleep with her father.SandRider wrote:great comic-book movie adaption
starring Jennifer Garner's tits.
In other words,
- SandChigger
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Re: Oedipus
Was there one where the offspring wanted to kill the other-sex parent to sleep with the same-sex one?
Or was that not play-worthy enough in Ancient Greece?
Or was that not play-worthy enough in Ancient Greece?
- othaderak
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Re: Oedipus
Is it the face that offends you, or Oedipus/Elektra complexes? If a, then I guess I can't please everyone...Redstar wrote:I take offense to that.
No worries on the mother's part, thanks to pederasty!SandChigger wrote:Was there one where the offspring wanted to kill the other-sex parent to sleep with the same-sex one?
Or was that not play-worthy enough in Ancient Greece?
Of course, now pederasty's bringing on Mr. Pukeface again...
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Re: Oedipus
A, thank you very much.othaderak wrote:Is it the face that offends you, or Oedipus/Elektra complexes? If a, then I guess I can't please everyone...Redstar wrote:I take offense to that.
- othaderak
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Re: Oedipus
Um... sorry?Redstar wrote:A, thank you very much.othaderak wrote:Is it the face that offends you, or Oedipus/Elektra complexes? If a, then I guess I can't please everyone...Redstar wrote:I take offense to that.
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Re: Oedipus
(Sorry ... was that the "I'm confoosed" sorry or the "I'm sorry" sorry? )
(Mine's the first!)
(Mine's the first!)
- Freakzilla
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Re: Oedipus
I don't think he obsessed about anyone's death besides his father's in Dune.othaderak wrote:I thought that was more in Dune Messiah than in the first oneFreakzilla wrote:
Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceding fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.
Paul chose to walk into the desert to defeat the cabal between the BG and Guild. Conforming to Fremen law in the process was bonus.Exactly. Plus, once he'd lost prescience, he was totally blind and subject to Fremen law, requiring him to wander off into the desert. No one forced him, but if you think about it, no one really could. A perk of being the Emperor/Kwisatz Haderach, I suppose.Freakzilla wrote:
Paul walked into the desert of his own free will, he was not forced.
Paul's own freewill...
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- othaderak
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Re: Oedipus
Eh.SandChigger wrote:(Sorry ... was that the "I'm confoosed" sorry or the "I'm sorry" sorry? )
(Mine's the first!)
I think I just phrased something wrong in the OP... Even if he didn't necessarily obsess over his death, he at least saw it many times. Sorry for any confusionFreakzilla wrote:I don't think he obsessed about anyone's death besides his father's in Dune.othaderak wrote:I thought that was more in Dune Messiah than in the first oneFreakzilla wrote:
Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceding fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.
I guess it's been a while since I read Children of Dune all the way through, plus I wrote this reeeeaally early in the morning.Freakzilla wrote:
Paul walked into the desert of his own free will, he was not forced.
Paul's own freewill...
Paul chose to walk into the desert to defeat the cabal between the BG and Guild. Conforming to Fremen law in the process was bonus.othaderak wrote:
Exactly. Plus, once he'd lost prescience, he was totally blind and subject to Fremen law, requiring him to wander off into the desert. No one forced him, but if you think about it, no one really could. A perk of being the Emperor/Kwisatz Haderach, I suppose.
Yeah, that's probably it.
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Re: Oedipus
I neglected to mention the BT were in on it too. They wanted Paul to abdicate and renounce his own religion, he did neither AND adhered to FREMEN law.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Oedipus
Freak, even if the parallels aren't perfect, they are real clear, i guess...Freakzilla wrote:I don't think he obsessed about anyone's death besides his father's in Dune.othaderak wrote:I thought that was more in Dune Messiah than in the first oneFreakzilla wrote:Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceding fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.
Marcio (mrpsbrk) does believe in Lord Leto over all other wills and reasons
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Re: Oedipus
I don't think they're close enought to call Paul Oedepus. It's no secret that FH borrowed themes and archetypes from classical literature.mrpsbrk wrote:Freak, even if the parallels aren't perfect, they are real clear, i guess...Freakzilla wrote:I don't think he obsessed about anyone's death besides his father's in Dune.othaderak wrote:I thought that was more in Dune Messiah than in the first oneFreakzilla wrote:Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceding fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Oedipus
Sometimes a book is just a book, and a writer doesn't have to emulate previous works to be good.mrpsbrk wrote:Freak, even if the parallels aren't perfect, they are real clear, i guess...Freakzilla wrote:I don't think he obsessed about anyone's death besides his father's in Dune.othaderak wrote:I thought that was more in Dune Messiah than in the first oneFreakzilla wrote:Paul didn't obsess over his own death. I only remember it being mentioned preceding fights (Jamis,Feyd-Rautha). He obsessed over Chani's.
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Re: Oedipus
I definitely wouldn't call Paul Oedipus outright, but I do appreciate the parallels. In Oedipus Tyrannos Oedipus didn't obsess over his own death, and neither does Paul in Dune or DM. Paul may have been concerned with his father's death and later with Chani's, but Oedipus never knew his father and isn't that concerned about Jocasta that we can see.
I think images that work well as parallels are the blindness being linked to wisdom and the understanding of prophecy; the comparison here between Oedipus, Tiresias and Paul is a nice one. Oedipus is someone who wanted to hear the prophecy from the Delphic oracle but then tried to go against it and change the future by leaving his homeland. No matter what he does he's locked into the future that was predicted, and his will to control his own fate is precisely the thing that delivers him unknowingly into its arms. I think it would be fair to say Paul experiences some of this as well, and here's a nice passage on that subject:
As an aside, Oedipus putting out his own eyes has a visual symbolism in Ancient Greek theatre (which used masks), which is that of castration. Consider the image of a mask with eyes and a long nose: picture the eyes destroyed, and you'll get the idea. As fathering a dynasty in the Dune series is very much about breeding, control, and setting the path of the future, this imagery can apply to Paul on the level that he steps down from his empire both as controller as well as progenitor. He doesn't even publicly take credit for the paternity of Leto II and Ghanima, which certainly can be seen like retroactively castrating himself and trying to swear off the whole kingdom-building business. Everyone knows that Leto II and Ghani are Atreides and the rightful heirs, but it's Paul himself who lives the rest of his life 'disowned' by his own choosing.
I think images that work well as parallels are the blindness being linked to wisdom and the understanding of prophecy; the comparison here between Oedipus, Tiresias and Paul is a nice one. Oedipus is someone who wanted to hear the prophecy from the Delphic oracle but then tried to go against it and change the future by leaving his homeland. No matter what he does he's locked into the future that was predicted, and his will to control his own fate is precisely the thing that delivers him unknowingly into its arms. I think it would be fair to say Paul experiences some of this as well, and here's a nice passage on that subject:
It's one thing to make plans, but the more the future is seen as a static event to either go towards or avoid, the more one exerts control to force the future's course on a specific path. Even trying to avoid a specific path is still taking control, as Paul learns through the jihad. Oedipus learns the lesson towards the end of Oedipus Tyrranos and once he realizes that his own intellect and force of will are what trapped him into his fate, he puts out his eyes and does away with trying to see what's to come. This lesson is, I think, very similar to Paul's, as Oedipus wants nothing more in the end than to break the prescient trap and to have the freedom to just live. He may end up living as a blind beggar, but at least he has the dignity of not having to live out a pre-set course. Paul echoes the desire for this, although in Paul's case it's not so simple as just walking away; in the end he does strip himself of his vision and goes into the wilderness blind just as Oedipus did.Dune Messiah wrote:I succumbed to the lure of the oracle, he thought.
And he sensed that succumbing to this lure might be to fix himself upon a
single-track life. Could it be, he wondered, that the oracle didn't tell the
future? Could it be that the oracle made the future? Had he exposed his life to
some web of underlying threads, trapped himself there in that long-ago
awakening, victim of a spider-future which even now advanced upon him with
terrifying jaws.
A Bene Gesserit axiom slipped into his mind: 'To use raw power is to make
yourself infinitely vulnerable to greater powers.'
As an aside, Oedipus putting out his own eyes has a visual symbolism in Ancient Greek theatre (which used masks), which is that of castration. Consider the image of a mask with eyes and a long nose: picture the eyes destroyed, and you'll get the idea. As fathering a dynasty in the Dune series is very much about breeding, control, and setting the path of the future, this imagery can apply to Paul on the level that he steps down from his empire both as controller as well as progenitor. He doesn't even publicly take credit for the paternity of Leto II and Ghanima, which certainly can be seen like retroactively castrating himself and trying to swear off the whole kingdom-building business. Everyone knows that Leto II and Ghani are Atreides and the rightful heirs, but it's Paul himself who lives the rest of his life 'disowned' by his own choosing.
"um-m-m-ah-h-h-hm-m-m-m!"