Amusing, pointless questions

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Amusing, pointless questions

Postby Schu » 06 Jan 2009 08:14

(the answer to which is "otherwise Dune wouldn't be Dune")

Why didn't the Fremen, or anyone else on dune, carry water pistols? One shot and a worm would fuck right off.

Why didn't spice miners use the water moat idea to protect their spice mining? The cost would surely have been worth it.

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Postby SandChigger » 06 Jan 2009 10:41

As for the first, considering that an adult worm could ingest a number of human beings—which are essentially just skin bags full of water—without ill effect, a water pistol probably wouldn't have made much difference.

A water canon, maybe. (What was that shit in that Seaworms book again? ;) )

And the second...where would the water come from?

I believe the open qanats and moats literally filled with water were a later thing, after the ecological transformation had gotten going.

As is pointed out in Heretics, the moats of dampened sand which protected settlements in the deeper desert, much later, represented a tremendous drain on the community water store, since the sandtrout were always making off with it.
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Postby Seraphan » 06 Jan 2009 10:47

Because Shai-Hulud is revered; because sandtrout encapsulate all water; because to the Fremen, the waste of water as such would be criminal; because in a desert planet water is paramount to one's survival and would be used in that way instead of wet t-shirt contests.
Oh and because those questions need to be thought over before being said.
{By the way, who asked them? And for what purpose?}
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Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jan 2009 10:53

Leto survived a sudden rain shower, I don't think a squirt gun is going to bother much Shai-Hulud.

:roll:
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Postby Drunken Idaho » 06 Jan 2009 12:12

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Seraphan wrote:Because Shai-Hulud is revered; because sandtrout encapsulate all water; because to the Fremen, the waste of water as such would be criminal; because in a desert planet water is paramount to one's survival and would be used in that way instead of wet t-shirt contests.
Oh and because those questions need to be thought over before being said.
{By the way, who asked them? And for what purpose?}


the waste of water wouldn't be done by fremen of course... but other than cost as a deterrant, it might have been a viable option for smugglers or imperial mining operations.


Keep in mind that at the time of the first Dune novel, the biology of worms was largely unknown to the universe. Something tells me smugglers and imperials (besides Kynes) wouldn't have the faintest inkling that water could kill a worm.
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Postby Freakzilla » 06 Jan 2009 12:14

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Leto survived a sudden rain shower, I don't think a squirt gun is going to bother much Shai-Hulud.

:roll:


a carryall or ornithopter mounted water cannon though? the worm may survive, but it could be an effective deterrant


Then there's the cost, the Fremen could barely keep a mote intact.
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Postby Seraphan » 06 Jan 2009 12:14

Drunken Idaho wrote:
Baraka Bryan wrote:
Seraphan wrote:Because Shai-Hulud is revered; because sandtrout encapsulate all water; because to the Fremen, the waste of water as such would be criminal; because in a desert planet water is paramount to one's survival and would be used in that way instead of wet t-shirt contests.
Oh and because those questions need to be thought over before being said.
{By the way, who asked them? And for what purpose?}


the waste of water wouldn't be done by fremen of course... but other than cost as a deterrant, it might have been a viable option for smugglers or imperial mining operations.


Keep in mind that at the time of the first Dune novel, the biology of worms was largely unknown to the universe. Something tells me smugglers and imperials (besides Kynes) wouldn't have the faintest inkling that water could kill a worm.

Yes, it was a Fremen secret.
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Postby GamePlayer » 06 Jan 2009 12:27

I'm definitely thinking it's a case of degree. Immerse a worm in water, yeah, it's doomed. Blast it with a firetruck hose, you're likely to get eaten/squashed long before the worm suffers any ill effects. The point is to somehow stop the worm before any damage is done. Hence why avoidance was always the best, most cost effective tactic.

It's like the gun vs. bear scenario; a good rifle will kill a bear, but will the bear actually die before he kills the shooter? If not, then the rifle really isn't much good is it? :)
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Postby Seraphan » 06 Jan 2009 13:48

Just the sheer colossal size of the worms, can you imagine the ridiculous amount of water needed? Just looking at one of them makes you go "Fuck this, i'm going home!"
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Postby chanilover » 06 Jan 2009 15:06

SandChigger wrote:As for the first, considering that an adult worm could ingest a number of human beings—which are essentially just skin bags full of water—without ill effect, a water pistol probably wouldn't have made much difference.

A water canon, maybe. (What was that shit in that Seaworms book again? ;) )



Yes it was, but take note that it appeared in Sandworms of Dune AFTER I posted a scene involving Honoured Matres and Bene Gesserits in one of my worm fanfic stories where they attempted to squirt Shai-Hulud with hosepipes.

Meh. Anderson is a thieving hack.
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Postby SandRider » 06 Jan 2009 15:43

LET'S THREATEN TO SUE HIM !!
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On Water worms

Postby Sole Man » 06 Jan 2009 16:34

^ Yay!

This brings up the question: Did the fremen wear thier stillsuits (Or some variation thereof) while having sex?

Maybe still blankets, or they just undid the zipper or something.

(I'm sure there's a good swallowing joke in there somewhere...)

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Re: On Water worms

Postby dunepunk » 06 Jan 2009 16:48

Sole Man wrote:^ Yay!

This brings up the question: Did the fremen wear thier stillsuits (Or some variation thereof) while having sex?

Maybe still blankets, or they just undid the zipper or something.

(I'm sure there's a good swallowing joke in there somewhere...)


I think that was usually done in the sietch or a stilltent. Either way there's already a system to reclaim moisture given off from the body in place-- the stillsuit discipline can be relaxed.
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Re: On Water worms

Postby EsperandoAGodot » 06 Jan 2009 18:38

Sole Man wrote:(I'm sure there's a good swallowing joke in there somewhere...)

dunepunk wrote:[...] there's already a system to reclaim moisture given off from the body in place

:lol:
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Postby Mandy » 06 Jan 2009 19:40

lol.. gross.

I wouldn't reclaim a Fremen's moisture if I was dying. srsly, it has NEVER been washed.

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Postby Schu » 06 Jan 2009 21:24

I persist in thinking that if Sheanna's community found a permanent water moat to be economically a good idea, what with sandtrout stealing it, the (not quite as severe as Dune, but still existent) water shortage and the fact that it was a pretty poor community anyway, then spice miners could have used a similar thing to protect their temporary mining operations, increasing their spice income to more than it would otherwise be per trip, which would more than pay for the water, even if it had to be imported, and cutting down on costs for spotters (or, since spotters are probably cheaper than the water, merely using them as intelligence with which to direct and time the use of water in such a way.

But as has been already said, it was a secret, so if anyone did it, it would be the fremen, and they probably wouldn't have. Yeah.

Maybe post-Leto worms were more sensitive to water used in such a way? Or FH didn't think of the idea of a moat until then.

It is interesting that worms will avoid a place where they would surely love to wreak havoc because of some soggy sand but quite happily eat people full of water. Could the insides be less sensitive to water than the outsides?

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Postby Sole Man » 06 Jan 2009 21:39

Oooo, Mandy's here.

NOW we can have some fun...

anyway, I think the moat idea is idiotic. First off, you have the sandtrout who would steal it, and abosorb it pretty quickly. (If the Spice-blow is made fast enough then it might go off and destroy the harvester. Then again it might just produce more spic to mine) In addition to that, the water soaked sand would evaporate quickly, much more quickly than for how long the harvesters work.(If it was done long enough, maybe it would produce rain clouds. Just a thought)

Now, you could hire aircraft to continually spray onto the surface, but that's not very cost effetive, now is it?

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Postby Schu » 06 Jan 2009 22:52

Well, how much was spice costing in solaris per decagram? I'm sure water was cheaper than that.

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Postby SandChigger » 06 Jan 2009 23:04

Again, unless I'm misremembering sompthin' fierce, Sheeana's village was surrounded by a moat of dampened sand, not the kind that surrounds a castle = a hole filled with water. (So, technically, I wouldn't call it a "moat" at all, but FH chose to, so there we are.)

:?: :?: :?:
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Postby Freakzilla » 07 Jan 2009 11:00

SandChigger wrote:Again, unless I'm misremembering sompthin' fierce, Sheeana's village was surrounded by a moat of dampened sand, not the kind that surrounds a castle = a hole filled with water. (So, technically, I wouldn't call it a "moat" at all, but FH chose to, so there we are.)

:?: :?: :?:


You're correct. They had to struggle to keep parts of it from drying up and letting a worm in... which is what happened.

However, a sandworms sensitivity to the presence of water may not be porportional to the potential damage it represents.

A worm might sense damp sand and not want to cross it, but that doesn't mean that amount of water would kill it.
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Postby EsperandoAGodot » 07 Jan 2009 13:59

Mandy wrote:lol.. gross.

I wouldn't reclaim a Fremen's moisture if I was dying. srsly, it has NEVER been washed.

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Postby Mandy » 07 Jan 2009 14:14

Gritty! :)

Before Leto II there just wasn't enough (free) water on Dune to use as a real moat. The Fremen were collecting every drop for the transformation, and I imagine transporting water from off planet would have been outrageously expensive. The people of Arrakis would have been horrified by such a blatant waste of potable water, same as they were during that first dinner.

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Re: Amusing, pointless questions

Postby cmsahe » 09 Jan 2009 21:58

Schu wrote:(the answer to which is "otherwise Dune wouldn't be Dune")

..
Why didn't spice miners use the water moat idea to protect their spice mining? The cost would surely have been worth it.


On the second question, I think that it would be useless, How deep would the moat be? Due to the scarcity of water maybe just a couple of meters, besides the sandworm could come straight from the bottom an attack the spice miners.
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Postby SandChigger » 10 Jan 2009 02:49

We have no idea how far down the sand goes in most areas. At some depth there will be a stratum of sandtrout-encapsulated water. (All the water on the planet didn't just disappear, after all.) The worms show a natural avoidance of sandtrout (remember Leto and that one worm?), so they won't ... can't dive that deeply.

:shock:

Hey, people ... I think I just thought of another reason why Sandworms is shit: remember, the worms supposedly "sensed" the HM attack coming and dived deep down to hibernate and wait out the attack and radiation afterwards.

Well, how the hell could they have done that without smashing into the stratum of sandtrout water and dying in it? :roll:
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Postby Nekhrun » 10 Jan 2009 09:22

SandChigger wrote:We have no idea how far down the sand goes in most areas. At some depth there will be a stratum of sandtrout-encapsulated water. (All the water on the planet didn't just disappear, after all.) The worms show a natural avoidance of sandtrout (remember Leto and that one worm?), so they won't ... can't dive that deeply.

:shock:

Hey, people ... I think I just thought of another reason why Sandworms is shit: remember, the worms supposedly "sensed" the HM attack coming and dived deep down to hibernate and wait out the attack and radiation afterwards.

Well, how the hell could they have done that without smashing into the stratum of sandtrout water and dying in it? :roll:

The sandtrout had dived even deeper to hibernate because they sensed the sandworms coming.