"I will die four deaths....."

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Phaedrus
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Postby Phaedrus » 25 May 2008 19:11

I don't understand this thread anymore.

=/
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Pardot Kynes
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Postby Pardot Kynes » 25 May 2008 19:29

Why :P
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orald
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Postby orald » 25 May 2008 19:30

Pardot Kynes wrote:Why :P

Maybe because we're all morons, eh? :roll:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Phaedrus
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Postby Phaedrus » 25 May 2008 23:18

orald wrote:
Pardot Kynes wrote:Why :P

Maybe because we're all morons, eh? :roll:


You take everything way too goddamn personally.

Because it's all vague talk about the symbolic voodoo of the interpretive dance meaning of death or reason or whatever, instead of trying to figure out what Leto was saying or meant. It's like a vague statements contest.
You aren't thinking or really existing unless you're willing to risk even your own sanity in the judgment of your existence.

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Pardot Kynes
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Postby Pardot Kynes » 26 May 2008 00:32

:lol:
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What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also.

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http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/451/451.html

http://omacl.org/

Dom
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Postby Dom » 12 Jun 2008 16:03

Death of the body: 'Aaaargh!' Splash! Fizz! Fall to bits! We've all covered that one, I guess! ;)

Death of the soul: Rakis, the planet whose 'soul' is intertwined with Leto's, is destroyed, but for a few specimens . . . with a chance of resurrection, if the worm cycle can begin anew elsewhere.

Death of the myth: When enough time has passed that Leto and the Golden Path are at last utterly forgotten (unless accidentally rediscovered by archaeologists or whatever), inevitably leading to . . .

Death of reason: The universe slides into chaos. Ragnarok. Apocalypse. And perhaps something new emerges from that!

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Postby SandChigger » 12 Jun 2008 20:03

Thread resurrected to die again! :D
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Omphalos » 12 Jun 2008 21:19

As long as nobody resurrects the Erasmus & Omnius = Marty & Daniel thread. I hated that one almost as much as "Atheists Arise!" I could not wait for those two to just die and go away.

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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Jun 2008 01:02

Omphalos wrote:As long as nobody resurrects the Erasmus & Omnius = Marty & Daniel thread. I hated that one almost as much as "Atheists Arise!" I could not wait for those two to just die and go away.


The one at DN? That turned into gun control vs anti gun control somehow, not really sure how... I think I lost the argument...for now.
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Postby orald » 13 Jun 2008 10:13

So godless people are now against having guns? :?

Anyone who doesn't want a gun is a dirty commie collaborator and tries to facilitate the soviet invasion to the land of the free. :x
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



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Postby Omphalos » 13 Jun 2008 10:32

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Omphalos wrote:As long as nobody resurrects the Erasmus & Omnius = Marty & Daniel thread. I hated that one almost as much as "Atheists Arise!" I could not wait for those two to just die and go away.


The one at DN? That turned into gun control vs anti gun control somehow, not really sure how... I think I lost the argument...for now.


That one's back? I hated that thread. It just went on too long. Byron and I got into a debate with Freak and B over there about gun control after the VA Tech thing. That was a good gun debate, I thought.

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Postby Pardot Kynes » 13 Jun 2008 10:46

If the teachers had had guns, there would have been no issue. Little fucker woulda got a bullet in the brain instead of killing people.
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What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also.

-Julius Caesar



http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/451/451.html

http://omacl.org/

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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Jun 2008 11:45

Omphalos wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Omphalos wrote:As long as nobody resurrects the Erasmus & Omnius = Marty & Daniel thread. I hated that one almost as much as "Atheists Arise!" I could not wait for those two to just die and go away.


The one at DN? That turned into gun control vs anti gun control somehow, not really sure how... I think I lost the argument...for now.


That one's back? I hated that thread. It just went on too long. Byron and I got into a debate with Freak and B over there about gun control after the VA Tech thing. That was a good gun debate, I thought.


Yeah it's back. I argued with Freak briefly just for fun, but I'm not really up on all the anti gun arguments so I didn't have the good answers - I kinda lost. Oh well. :oops:
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Postby Freakzilla » 13 Jun 2008 11:50

It's a sticky issue in the US. gun control has good points for sure but you'll never take guns away from Americans. We'd rather shoot you for trying. It's a symbol of our freedom.
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A Thing of Eternity
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Postby A Thing of Eternity » 13 Jun 2008 12:03

Freakzilla wrote:It's a sticky issue in the US. gun control has good points for sure but you'll never take guns away from Americans. We'd rather shoot you for trying. It's a symbol of our freedom.


Well, I'm okay with Sikhs carrying around swords, so I guess I'll have to be okay with Americans carrying guns :D Not my country!
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Postby orald » 13 Jun 2008 12:10

Freakzilla wrote:It's a symbol of our freedom.

And Frank(through Duke Leto in Dune) knew it!

The prophet has spoken! It is sinful to withhold guns!









Q.E.D 8)
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



I wish I could have been with you that one last time.

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Postby SandChigger » 13 Jun 2008 17:27

It's a symbol of a few other of our less praiseworthy aspects as well.

But never mind. :roll:
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Freakzilla
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Postby Freakzilla » 13 Jun 2008 17:30

SandChigger wrote:It's a symbol of a few other of our less praiseworthy aspects as well.

But never mind. :roll:


Speak for yourself, mine is highly praised. :wink:
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Postby SandChigger » 13 Jun 2008 18:02

As the SpiceGander (where's he gotten to?) might say...

Thank you for proving my point! :D
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

I don't like every writer's style; for instance, I have never been able to get through Ursula LeGuin, China Mieville, or Iain Banks, all of whom are critical darlings. —KJA

I...had written a bunch of Star Wars and X-Files books...that proved not just that I'm a hack, but that I could write in somebody else's universe... —KJA

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Postby Freakzilla » 13 Jun 2008 18:17

SandChigger wrote:As the SpiceGander (where's he gotten to?) might say...

Thank you for proving my point! :D


As the Honorable Reverend Jessie Jackson would say, "The point is moot."

:D
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Postby martinburo » 15 Jun 2008 06:55

So far, there have been lots of ideas about what the deaths could be, but what about the resurrections.

I think the sandtrout leaving Leto's body and starting a new spice cycle is one. I would call it the seed of the flesh. Another one may be the BG finding the way to transplant worms and starting a new cycle on Chapterhouse after the sterilisation of Dune, and afterwards on many more planets in the second scattering. Then the spread of the Siona gene could also be one. I can't figure out which resurrections they would be, though.

About the deaths: Everybody agrees that the death of the flesh is when Leto II is dumped into Idaho River. I would say that another death is the destruction of Rakis at the end of Heretics. The latter ends the influence of Leto II over the Old Empire (or at least that's part of Taraza's plan), therefore I would have said it's the death of reason. I thought when Siona gloats over Leto towards the end of her testing, I think that might be called the death of the soul, though that would make it appear out of sequence.

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Re: "I will die four deaths....."

Postby dm1215 » 15 Jun 2008 10:33

orald wrote:
Spice Grandson wrote:Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about.

I think you're close to something, but then you go the other way around.
The GP just can't fail anymore.

I think maybe "reason" was, like you said, his reason to stay around- i.e the GP.
But once humanity became "infinite" it was completed, there was no more reason for him to be.

This might also mean the death of all but one of the sandworms, which the BG suspected of guiding and locking the old empire in his vision.
Once there was no real reason for them to stay(early on in the famine times they were needed for their spice, until the BT came along with artificial one and Ix with nav' machines), their death came, the death of Leto's reason to stick around.


I have a question about this. More like a comment. I felt that the Golden Path was never completely secure. It's just the way I see Frank working his stories. He never secures anything. Not his characters or any of their plans. Bit of an anarchist from what I can tell.
Long live the frightners!

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A Thing of Eternity
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Re: "I will die four deaths....."

Postby A Thing of Eternity » 15 Jun 2008 13:54

dm1215 wrote:
orald wrote:
Spice Grandson wrote:Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about.

I think you're close to something, but then you go the other way around.
The GP just can't fail anymore.

I think maybe "reason" was, like you said, his reason to stay around- i.e the GP.
But once humanity became "infinite" it was completed, there was no more reason for him to be.

This might also mean the death of all but one of the sandworms, which the BG suspected of guiding and locking the old empire in his vision.
Once there was no real reason for them to stay(early on in the famine times they were needed for their spice, until the BT came along with artificial one and Ix with nav' machines), their death came, the death of Leto's reason to stick around.


I have a question about this. More like a comment. I felt that the Golden Path was never completely secure. It's just the way I see Frank working his stories. He never secures anything. Not his characters or any of their plans. Bit of an anarchist from what I can tell.


There are pages and pages and pages here explaining exactly why the GP is secure by the time of Heretics. Check em out then come back to this subject.
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dm1215
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Re: "I will die four deaths....."

Postby dm1215 » 15 Jun 2008 14:26

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
dm1215 wrote:
orald wrote:
Spice Grandson wrote:Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about.

I think you're close to something, but then you go the other way around.
The GP just can't fail anymore.

I think maybe "reason" was, like you said, his reason to stay around- i.e the GP.
But once humanity became "infinite" it was completed, there was no more reason for him to be.

This might also mean the death of all but one of the sandworms, which the BG suspected of guiding and locking the old empire in his vision.
Once there was no real reason for them to stay(early on in the famine times they were needed for their spice, until the BT came along with artificial one and Ix with nav' machines), their death came, the death of Leto's reason to stick around.


I have a question about this. More like a comment. I felt that the Golden Path was never completely secure. It's just the way I see Frank working his stories. He never secures anything. Not his characters or any of their plans. Bit of an anarchist from what I can tell.


There are pages and pages and pages here explaining exactly why the GP is secure by the time of Heretics. Check em out then come back to this subject.


Ok. Thanks. I will.
Long live the frightners!

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Re: "I will die four deaths....."

Postby Serkanner » 15 Jun 2008 17:44

dm1215 wrote:
orald wrote:
Spice Grandson wrote:Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about.

I think you're close to something, but then you go the other way around.
The GP just can't fail anymore.

I think maybe "reason" was, like you said, his reason to stay around- i.e the GP.
But once humanity became "infinite" it was completed, there was no more reason for him to be.

This might also mean the death of all but one of the sandworms, which the BG suspected of guiding and locking the old empire in his vision.
Once there was no real reason for them to stay(early on in the famine times they were needed for their spice, until the BT came along with artificial one and Ix with nav' machines), their death came, the death of Leto's reason to stick around.


I have a question about this. More like a comment. I felt that the Golden Path was never completely secure. It's just the way I see Frank working his stories. He never secures anything. Not his characters or any of their plans. Bit of an anarchist from what I can tell.


Deja vu anybody?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."

“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”

Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."


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