"I will die four deaths....."

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loremaster
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Postby loremaster » 23 May 2008 03:14

Also: I think that If Paul and Chani's cells were there then the potential of leto-cells is there at least!.....

....Hah, no, i cant hold my poker face on that one. It's just a bit too far.
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Postby SimonH » 23 May 2008 07:17

loremaster wrote:I'm gonna actually go stand next to byron for this one:

I cannot see any reason to think humanity is super-safe-from-all-threats-forever.

When a massive amount of humanity is divided by a massive amount of time, the result is 1. When measured against "infinite" time in the universe, nothing is secure forever. Not even the golden path.

I know there is a tendancy on this forum to hold everything leto did as sacrosanct and infallible, But as i`ve said before i dont think the Golden Path can "succeed", it can just "not fail" indefinately. I also think the one of the key plots of the BG is their maturation through various processes into caretakers of the golden path. Why? because humanity needs constant vigilance.

the golden path IS humanity's survival, but what evidence do you have it has already happened? I think part of the golden path includes maturing humanity (in particular the BG) so that they can guard the golden path themselves

With that in mind, i`ve gone for a similar interpretation to Hoosier:

Death of the flesh = plop.

Death of the soul = the death of the last sandworm in humanities distant future (which hasnt happened yet).

Death of the myth = the death of all that deification surrounding Leto. Death of the sandworms, death of his godhead (probably at the hands of the BG). The death of cults of Dur and Sheanna. Everything around him as the prophet by the tleilaxu. The point at which people realise he is only human.

Death of reason = The death of the reason for his existence, when everything which he built is superceded. This occurs when humanity has matured to the point where it can manage the golden path itself.
also:

Why do you think it means reasoning ability? Surely his reasoning ability goes LONG before the soul, and the myth. Evidence:

Sandworms cannot reason, they are instinctual.

Infact, i might even argue that Leto loses his reasoning ability before he even dies, (he says himself it is a threat to the GP to marry Hwi, against all sense). He also gets angry and whips the tleilaxu envoy, saying "i am diminished". No, im afraid "reason" in this context means the reason for his existence. (You said yourself it you think it should come before myth, - so ask yourself, why did frank not write it thus?)


Not Leto's reasoning ability, the populace's reason, i.e. logical or non mythical interpretation. I think I am repeating what Omphalos said previously:

Omphalos wrote:The death of reason: For my money, this one should have gone before the death of the myth. I have no idea, but if I take a wild guess, it could mean that the death of real knowledge about Leto will die, as opposed to the myths that successive generations tell about him. If this is what it means, then it does go before the death of the myth because this will be lost within one generation (whereas the death of the myth will take many generations), when those who knew Leto died.


I agree that the death of reason in this interpretation should come first.

"Death of reason" (when reason = purpose) is not good English. "Death of purpose" makes more sense to me

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Postby Tleilax Master B » 23 May 2008 11:57

loremaster wrote:Also: I think that If Paul and Chani's cells were there then the potential of leto-cells is there at least!.....

....Hah, no, i cant hold my poker face on that one. It's just a bit too far.


I hope that is a joke. But for those that insist on this I will keep pointing this out to everyone:

Leto II was the Prophet to the BT. He was sort of a Jesus Christ to them, or a mohammed. And people really believe that when thinking to himself about the nullentropy tube he would just fail to mention he had the cells of his fucking Prophet in there? And then, on top of that, the "prize of all prizes" are the cells of new face dancers?!?!? :evil: They are more of a prize than having cells of their Messiah? He just fails to mention it, right? Probably just slipped his mind; what with him being a religious zealot and all :roll:

That is complete and utter bullshit. Unadultered. Totally bogus. I've said it once, and I will say it again: SHOW ME IN FRANK'S NOTES WHERE HE INTENDED TO RESURRECT LETO FROM THE CELLS IN THAT TUBE AND I WILL EAT MY FREAKING HAT. i'll even tape it, and post it on youtube for all the preeks to watch and enjoy......
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Postby Mandy » 23 May 2008 12:37

I just realized I hadn't given my take on the four deaths, so I'll take a stab at it :P

Death of the flesh: Could literally mean when he fell from the bridge and died, or it could mean the continuing transformation into a sandworm. I can't remember exactly what he said about his transformation but I think he indicated that he'd continue to become more and more the worm.

Death of the soul: When the last of his humanity was gone, his soul would be too. I have trouble pinning this death down. What is a soul? Is it what made him human?

Death of the myth: With the discovery of his journals at Dar es Balat, he became real again. 1500yrs is long enough for reality to change to myth. Also this could be his resurrection. The journals and writings on the walls were the seeds, the discovery the resurrection.

Death of reason: Maybe when Arrakis is destroyed and all but one sandworm is left, his ability to control the GP dies. I dunno.. this one is tough. I don't think it means purpose though.

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Postby SandChigger » 23 May 2008 15:39

Again (and again) "the death of reason" is just plain bad English if what was meant was "the death of my reason for being/doing all this".

And no, I don't have a good alternative interpretation for it. But that was never a reason for embracing a bad one.


I guess I don't buy into the idea of the GP needing "caretakers", someone to look out for the welfare of all of humanity. It seems to me that would have been one of the things that Leto didn't want.

I don't know where this idea that we all hold Leto as holy and infallible came from (well, actually I do, but never mind :roll: ). I think he got the main thing right: taught the race the danger of closed systems and instilled a need to expand.

Leto's Golden Path succeeded in that it spread people far and wide. The human species will not exist forever, but because of what he did it will at least have time, perhaps, to "create interesting patterns." ;)
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Postby Omphalos » 23 May 2008 16:32

Again (and again) "the death of reason" is just plain bad English if what was meant was "the death of my reason for being/doing all this".

And no, I don't have a good alternative interpretation for it. But that was never a reason for embracing a bad one.


IDK either, which is why my touchey-feeley analysis.

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Postby Serkanner » 23 May 2008 16:49

Death of "reason" ... could it be perhaps that he meant that this type of death would kill his ability to "think" and turn into the state of "dreaming"?

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Postby orald » 23 May 2008 16:49

God Leto can never be wrong nor fail, and anyone saying otherwise is a dirty powindah scum! :evil:
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.

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Postby Mandy » 23 May 2008 18:37

I think the GP was so that humanity wouldn't need caretakers anymore, and once the GP was far enough along it would take on a life of it's own... so to speak. Humanity spread out through the universe so far and wide that no single enemy could ever threaten it again.

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Postby orald » 23 May 2008 19:01

Mandy wrote:Humanity spread out through the universe so far and wide that no single enemy could ever threaten it again.

It's not just "far and wide" that's in play here.
In GEoD God Leto tells about the imperium being like a bubble, everything is connected, humanity is all connected.

The whole point of the scattering is that nobody knows where everyone is.
There are huge groups which splintered away and there's no way to find them before their own decendants split away again and again.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.



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Postby Phaedrus » 24 May 2008 14:19

"Reason" isn't the same as "reasoning." "Reason" refers to the general capacity for rational thought, not the action of rational thought. It's a subtle difference, I know, but some people don't seem to see it.

The first thing I have to point out is that he's obviously speaking metaphorically, so "death of reason" could be used more for effect than for literal meaning. He's obviously not referring to the actual death of anyone's capacity for rational thought.

And you have to realize that nothing Leto says can be taken at face value. He's very clever, remember? Who was he speaking to, here? Hwi?

Doesn't the God Emperor occasionally lie?

I have my doubts that there's any deeper meaning in what he's saying.
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Phaedrus
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Re: "I will die four deaths....."

Postby Phaedrus » 24 May 2008 14:40

Spice Grandson wrote:Death of reason: Meaning his reason for being would die out, too. I'm going to step on some OH toes here, but I think this means his Golden Path might die off, too -- after all, what was Leto's "reason" for living? Something to think about. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Frank loved to kill off his characters and their reasons for being (from The Old Duke, to Duke Leto, to Paul, to Leto II ...all of them suffered real deaths and deaths of reason).


Yeah, except Leto I, Paul, Alia, and all of FH's other characters were primarily motivated in the wrong way. Leto I didn't see beyond House Atreides and his family. Paul didn't see beyond his own honor and beyond Chani. Alia didn't see past herself, really. Leto II saw beyond himself, his family, his subjects, beyond everyone he ever knew or cared about, and he saw past the future of humanity, as far as it could go. And that's what he focused on.

And you're wrong, anyway. FH didn't "kill off" his characters, as you callously claim. Leto I died trying to kill his mortal enemy. He failed in that, but he succeeded in getting Paul and Jessica out alive, which was his intention. Paul mostly succeeding in keeping his honor. He got his revenge against Houses Harkonnen and Corrino, became Emperor, became a Messiah, then managed to seem even more holy when he did the desertwalk. He finally realized his flaw when Leto II points it out to him(he didn't see the only way for humans to survive), but after that point, he faithfully follows Leto. Overall, Paul failed to start the Golden Path himself, but he ended up loyal to it, with his honor basically intact.

I have trouble with the idea that FH intended for Leto to fail so utterly, after he gave up so much. But I guess the official HLP interpretation is that FH is a cruel dickbag. Good to know.

EDIT: And how the FUCK does your little interpretation hold up to your prequels and sequels? Assuming, as you claim, that Norma Cenva and Super Kwisatz Haderach Duncan Idaho were in the fabled Notes and Outline, then they're Frank creations too, eh? And he LOVED to tear down his creations. Except, wait. Duncan and Norma are perfect gods, shining their light down upon humanity and robotland alike.

Grats, your two-faced attempts to justify the new books manage only to tear down both Frank AND the new books. But that's the real plan, isn't it? Next thing you know, the argument will be that Frank Herbert knew that he wasn't perfect, just like his creations, and he wouldn't want us to take his books so seriously.

Utter bullshit, but I guess that comes with the milking business.
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Postby Mandy » 24 May 2008 15:08

He was also speaking to his Ixian recorders.

The death of reason could be referring to the famine times and the scattering. I imagine it was a frightening time to be alive.

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Postby Phaedrus » 25 May 2008 00:16

Mandy wrote:He was also speaking to his Ixian recorders.

The death of reason could be referring to the famine times and the scattering. I imagine it was a frightening time to be alive.


Except Leto said that HE would die four deaths, no?

Just found this, searching for the quote itself:
How seductive is it, he thought, this call of the siren which would have me live only in the past.
And how useless that past now, thanks to the damnable Ixians. How boring the past when Hwi is here. She would come to me right now if I summoned her. but I cannot call for her...not now...not tonight.

The past continued to beckon.
I could make a pilgrimage into my past. It does not have to be a safari. I could go alone. Pilgrimage purifies. Safaris make me into a tourist. I could go alone into my inner world.
And never return.

Leto felt the inevitability of it, that the dream-state would eventually trap him.
I create a special dream-state throughout my Empire. Within this dream, new myths form, new directions appear adn new movements. New...new...new...The things emerge from my own dreams, out of my myths. Who more susceptible to them than I? The hunter caught in his own trap.
Leto knew then that he had encountered a condition for which no antidote existed- past, present, or future.


The bolded part is especially interesting, isn't it?

...OK, found the conversation between Leto and Hwi. I'm lead to believe that the death of the myth is "when forever ends," and the death of reason is the delusion that Leto was just a tyrant. If it refers to anything at all. Read that part of the book and you'll see what I mean.
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Postby Mandy » 25 May 2008 11:21

Yeah, he said he would die four deaths.. but they're not all physical deaths, obviously.

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Postby orald » 25 May 2008 13:52

Hmm, it seems that since he's already dead in the first death, he can't actually die again now, can he?

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.

:wink:
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Postby Pardot Kynes » 25 May 2008 13:55

He can have a semblance of death, can he not?
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Postby SandChigger » 25 May 2008 14:46

At the very least. And double helpings on bargain Tuesdays!
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Postby Mandy » 25 May 2008 15:07

He'll die again when the hacks fill in the gaps.

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Postby Phaedrus » 25 May 2008 15:10

Mandy wrote:Yeah, he said he would die four deaths.. but they're not all physical deaths, obviously.


My point is that society's descent into chaos isn't really a death that could be said to be Leto's.

Pardot Kynes wrote:He can have a semblance of death, can he not?


Such vague terms are what make this discussion so complex. Which might have been SC's point?

I'm standing by my interpretation, supported by the actual conversation:

Death of the body is obvious.
Death of the soul is when Leto's mind dissociates(is that a word?) and he enters the "endless dream-state."
Death of the myth is when people finally stop worshipping Leto.
Death of reason is when people delusionally believe Leto is a Tyrant.

It's simple, it's straightforward, and it works with what we know about transitions in thinking about Leto. It also works with the conversation between Hwi and Leto.

In thinking about the death of Leto, I've realized: doesn't Leto say that his brain is in his entire body? So, at the end of GEoD, at Leto's death, all that's left is his original human body. The sandworm part has been doused in water, so that's a huge portion of his brain gone. What does this mean about Leto's words at the end of the book, about the Ixians creating arafel? Or is this a FH inconsistency?

Hmmm.... =/

Mandy wrote:He'll die again when the hacks fill in the gaps.


Ah, so THAT'S the death of reason! Frank Herbert was a PROPHET! he even foresaw his own characters reduced to hackery!
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Postby Mandy » 25 May 2008 15:22

People called him Tyrant before he died.. because he was a tyrant.

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Postby orald » 25 May 2008 16:56

Mandy wrote:People called him Tyrant before he died.. because he was a tyrant.

Blasphemous lies! :x He was God!
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Postby Pardot Kynes » 25 May 2008 17:48

What if he never really died- he metamorphosed into a hive mind. Thus, he took on the semblance of death, which was the second. The first was his changing into the Tyrant. Then the third was when Rakis got nuked.

What would be the fourth?
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Postby SandChigger » 25 May 2008 18:02

I kinda like this idea that he tricks you into seeing a chronological sequence that the last item proves is just accidental. ;)


(If he developed into a hive mind, though, wouldn't he still achieve a conscious whole of some sort?)
I have heard of only one mistake that doesn’t have an explanation for a careful reader...with an open mind. (And, no, I’m not going to tell you what it is!) —KJA

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Postby Pardot Kynes » 25 May 2008 18:04

Yes, but is there really anything to disprove that that is not the case? That he has some sort of life still? After all, his "pearl" is in all the worms.
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