Re: Did Leto II Plan His Own Death?
Posted: 02 Feb 2015 06:45
I'd guess that altering it's addictive properties might take away its benefits.
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Ok, I know nothing about how addiction works. That said, if you've the ability to manipulategeorgiedenbro wrote:If BG develop a physical addiction to spice, all altering spice's molecular structure would do is deprive them of the drug their body needs without dealing with the addiction. I guess we should assume the spice forms a bond with the body's basic workings in more than a cursory way such as what nicotine does. Nicotine is irrelevant for the body's function but happens to create an addiction; if spice works its way into your system and becomes essential for the body's actual function then I guess the addiction wouldn't be something you could kick.
The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as muchJasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.
He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.
On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.D Pope wrote:The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as muchJasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.
He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.
as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
of his life in Hwi.
Yup. They had effectively 'bested' him with Hwi, as planned, but they were too late. They would likely have won if the Golden Path hadn't already been secured in every way but his death. In a sense it really came down to the wire in the end, even though the plan was thousands of years in the making. I think that fact wasn't entirely clear to me on my last reading, and I'll keep it in mind when I read it again soon.JasonJD48 wrote:On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.D Pope wrote:The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as muchJasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.
He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.
as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
of his life in Hwi.
Indeed, I think either way he didn't have long to live, though if Hwi hadn't come about, he'd have probably spent a few more years ensuring some details.georgiedenbro wrote:Yup. They had effectively 'bested' him with Hwi, as planned, but they were too late. They would likely have won if the Golden Path hadn't already been secured in every way but his death. In a sense it really came down to the wire in the end, even though the plan was thousands of years in the making. I think that fact wasn't entirely clear to me on my last reading, and I'll keep it in mind when I read it again soon.JasonJD48 wrote:On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.D Pope wrote:The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as muchJasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.
He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.
as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
of his life in Hwi.
This I'll have to think about, but my truth sense tells me you're on to something. My bible is somewhere in a storage unit. Is there any text to support this?JasonJD48 wrote:On the contrary, I think Hwi was exactly why he had to do it then. She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.D Pope wrote:The Nayla argument pushes me off the fence though I wouldn't say he planned it as muchJasonJD48 wrote:Back on the topic of Leto planning his death. I think it's obvious he did.
He says he's 'pregnant with his empire and will die giving birth to it', he talks about him personally restarting the spice cycle with his death. He puts Duncan, Siona and Nayla exactly where they need to be, intent on destroying him, with gun in hand. He couldn't have orchestrated it any clearer except by literally saying "fuck this, I'm out" and throwing himself in the water.
as encouraged the possibility. I can't see him cutting out when he's just gotten the surprise
of his life in Hwi.
JasonJD48 wrote: She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.
Just to hurt and weaken him I suppose.Captain_Cackwurst wrote:JasonJD48 wrote: She was too much a threat to the Golden Path, she was raising too much emotion in him.
How was this a thread? Because he feared he could not work rationally enough anymore?
Also, an off-topic question: What really was the Ixians plan for Hwi? Just to make him unstable due to emotion?
Which it did.inhuien wrote:I've always thought that she would have been killed or hurt in someway to distract and undermine Leto, make him vulnerable to attack.
That explains it then.Freakzilla wrote:Which it did.inhuien wrote:I've always thought that she would have been killed or hurt in someway to distract and undermine Leto, make him vulnerable to attack.
I just finished another reading of it last night (I couldn't make myself finish the Reading Group entries, sorry...) and I agree with you. He never planned in advance of the contents of the book where he would die, and he even spoke at times about the future of his transformation and how he dreaded it. But once he tested Siona and knew she was what he was breeding for, and at the same time knew the INM was in development, he knew it was the right time. I believe it was during the scene where Malky was being killed that Leto imagined jumping off a ledge and dying, and he sees the Golden Path blink in and out of existence due to lack of water below. His very next act, more or less, is to change to wedding location to Tuono. I don't think he merely decided at this point that it would be a good time to die, but he even contemplated the exact nature and location of the death; falling down a precipice, over water, on the bridge to Tuono. He may not have know for sure they would really go through with it, but he at least set things up to give them every chance to do it then and there. If they failed to do so he'd have had to give them another chance at a time of his choosing that would keep the Golden Path open.Freakzilla wrote: As for the original topic, I recently reread GEoD and while Leto certainly didn't plan his own death, he did put all the pieces into place. Once Siona was tested and the INM and no-tech was scattered, the instant Moneo told him where Siona and Duncan were he immediately changed that to the place of his wedding. Nayla was given a lasgun (an honor) and had a standing order to obey Siona.
totally agree with this. I'm in a re-reading and it's more and more obvious for me that that all the conversations between Leto and Hwi converge to the resignation that she, alive, is a threat for the GP. She willingly accept to die with him.PanCotzky wrote:Well... The fact that Leto knew that he will die was pretty obvious from the very beginning of the book. In his conversation with Maneo he said clearly that he will die and that the time for it has come. That it will happen soon. That was in the first half of the book. At the end of the book everything was hinting at the fact that he will die. And not just in the story. When he asked Hwi if she agrees to be with him 'til the very end and she agreed. That was a direct hint on the fact that he didn't only knew that he will die, but he also offered Hwi to die with him. And yes, that was totally planned because as you can remember he planned Duncan to mate with Siona. That was a part of the Golden Path. If Hwi survived Duncan wouldn't even think about mating with Siona. So, Hwi had to die.
That was also the reason why he was mad about Duncan and Hwi. Not only because of jealousy but also because of the fact that now Hwi has to die.
I think of "planned" in this sense the same way he or Muad'dib "planned" out a future. It's not like they sit down and instruct everyone what to do; rather they just take whatever minimal steps are required to set the pieces in motion for that path to transpire. I do agree, though, that he probably didn't actually see his own death, but rather just used basic logic to know when it would happen due to pretty much inevitable circumstances leading up to it.Freakzilla wrote:I still don't think he planned his own death. He certainly set the pieces in place to favor it. But he seemed to be under almost constant attack, especially from the Duncans. All had to do was not prevent it.
Yes, especially when you consider that he had to die near water. Like when he considered throwing himself out of the Little Citadel tower and could sense the Golden Path winking in and out of existence just for thinking it, I'm sure that sense helped guide him to the right death.georgiedenbro wrote:I think of "planned" in this sense the same way he or Muad'dib "planned" out a future. It's not like they sit down and instruct everyone what to do; rather they just take whatever minimal steps are required to set the pieces in motion for that path to transpire. I do agree, though, that he probably didn't actually see his own death, but rather just used basic logic to know when it would happen due to pretty much inevitable circumstances leading up to it.Freakzilla wrote:I still don't think he planned his own death. He certainly set the pieces in place to favor it. But he seemed to be under almost constant attack, especially from the Duncans. All had to do was not prevent it.