Re: The Golden Path
Posted: 06 Apr 2012 12:32
It's also important to note the theme of: "They will hate me, but at least they'll be alive to hate me." This was a philosophy shared by both Paul and Leto II
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Isn't that the idea behind the Golden Path? Once you know your future your choices are no longer yours. Not in the usual, human terms of making choices.Freakzilla wrote:Paul didn't really have much of a choice in anything he did
This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).Serkanner wrote:This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).Serkanner wrote:This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.gurensan wrote:I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).Serkanner wrote:This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.
I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.
Point taken.Freakzilla wrote:The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.gurensan wrote:I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).Serkanner wrote:This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.
I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.
Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?Serkanner wrote:Point taken.Freakzilla wrote:The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.gurensan wrote:I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).Serkanner wrote:This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.
I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.
No. The point was to have a universe of surprises. The Golden Path is not an actual path through the future. Leto only used his prescience to see if humanity survives past his own time. As long as all of them don't die... SUCCESS!gurensan wrote:Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?Serkanner wrote:Point taken.Freakzilla wrote:The reason I say that is because up until then his plan could be defeated. So until that point is was just a possible future.gurensan wrote:I disagree with the last bit. It got underway the moment it was seen and the decision was made to implement it.Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).Serkanner wrote:This is, to me, the Golden Path.Freakzilla wrote:
Leto's metamorphosis was an act of creation that broke him out of Paul's vision and saved humanity from extinction. This is only the first step on the Golden Path.
And then we skip ahead 1500 years and see the results of the process, rather than the process itself. The GP is still chugging along quite nicely at the end of C:oD. The Scattering is only one element, and the HM are only one of many groups out there, thanks to Leto and his decision to ensure that no one single point of civilization failure can ever cause the human race to disappear... a lá the destruction of the spice.
I could go into the corollaries with our modern existence, but I think I'd better stop there.
I'll rephrase - the work Leto did to ensure success wasn't to set up a particular future, but to eliminate the possibilities of others - namely the extinction of humanity through a disaster - that he doesn't reveal - in which the path of avoidance involves lighting a fire under mankind's arse and getting him to scatter like roaches with the light turned on and ensure that they couldn't all be found by another like himself. I think we can all agree on that! I just don't agree that what Leto himself did wasn't part of that plan. I believe it was critical to it.Freakzilla wrote:No. The point was to have a universe of surprises. The Golden Path is not an actual path through the future. Leto only used his prescience to see if humanity survives past his own time. As long as all of them don't die... SUCCESS!gurensan wrote:
Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?
It's revealed in Siona's test.gurensan wrote:I'll rephrase - the work Leto did to ensure success wasn't to set up a particular future, but to eliminate the possibilities of others - namely the extinction of humanity through a disaster - that he doesn't revealFreakzilla wrote:No. The point was to have a universe of surprises. The Golden Path is not an actual path through the future. Leto only used his prescience to see if humanity survives past his own time. As long as all of them don't die... SUCCESS!gurensan wrote:
Understood. But the process of locking in a future is part of that future, no?
Who's plan?- in which the path of avoidance involves lighting a fire under mankind's arse and getting him to scatter like roaches with the light turned on and ensure that they couldn't all be found by another like himself. I think we can all agree on that! I just don't agree that what Leto himself did wasn't part of that plan. I believe it was critical to it.
We can't stop here, this is bat country.It's like driving a car down the street - you didn't push it yourself, but you put gas in the tank, turned the key, put it in gear, and hit the pedal. By the logic that what Leto did wasn't part of the Golden Path, what you did with the car was no part of its getting to the end of the street.
You've totally lost me with this analogy.I say what Leto did was integral to the success of his GP, just like turning the key was integral to the car's motion, even though the axles weren't directly twisted by it. Thus, it was part of it, just as seeing and understanding the need for any solution is an integral part of achieving that solution.
The whole point I was making is that no plan or stratagem nor desired result ever occurs without the decision to implement that strategy. The steps taken to set up the conditions of success are integral to the achievement of the it. You can't get an A without doing the homework, just like the car can't get itself to the end of the street until you start the engine.Freakzilla wrote: You've totally lost me with this analogy.
Leto's actions were as part of his Golden Path as much as the results were, including seeing the need for it. Seeing the plan is part of the plan, just as turning the key was instrumental in getting the car to the other end of the street. The analogy make sense now?Freakzilla wrote:It didn't really get underway until he died (divided).
And more significantly when he's dying he says the Ixians can no longer bring about the Apocalypse.Freakzilla wrote:I believe the extinction that Leto's metamorphosis prevented was the machines Siona saw hunting down humans in her vision during her test. He alludes to an Ixian, self-improving, AI, hunter-seeker that they contemplated making in a conversation with Hwi. I think that was it.
Blasphemy! Take his water.PanCotzky wrote:Ok. There's actually a metaphor, stretched across the entire series and the REAL question that was left unanswered by Frank but was tackled by Brian (for better or for worse). First - the meaning of the name "The Golden Path".
I like your line of thinking on the term "golden path", but it should be noted that the series states clearly that the KH isn't just a more powerful Navigator, he uses non-linear prescience and avoids a machine type of thinking. On a metaphorical level I would agree that Leto II 'navigates' for humanity, but the type of understanding and power the KH has is not just a more powerful version of what a Navigator does. I like the idea of thinking of 'shortening of the way' as having some reference to the golden ratio, but it also clearly has to do with shortening the way between the past and the future - in Paul's words, making them both "the now." Or to use Colonel Sanders' words, "soon."PanCotzky wrote:Ok. There's actually a metaphor, stretched across the entire series and the REAL question that was left unanswered by Frank but was tackled by Brian (for better or for worse). First - the meaning of the name "The Golden Path".
First of all it is not a literal term but rather a mathematical one. Like the Golden Section. "Golden" means "the best of all possible", "the most optimal". The Golden Path is a purpose for which the Kwisatz Haderach was created. Definitely the Bene Gesserit didn't plan that but it was pretty obvious. The words "Kwisatz Haderach" means "Shortening of the Way" and by its nature the Kwisatz Haderach is just a very powerful Navigator. The work of the navigator is to scan different paths of the ship in the future. Most of the paths lead the ship to a certain demise. Some of them just lead it to a wrong points. And among all those millions of paths there is one and only that leads the ship to a final destination safely - the Golden Path. The Kwisatz Haderach is also a navigator. But he doesn't lead ships. He leads the Humanity itself. And his Golden Path is a way of getting humanity to the future without it dying off.
Kralizec was inevitable and if anything the Golden Path was meant to lead to it, not avoid it.Now the second thing. I think that asking what the Golden Path is - not totally correct. What you should have asked is what the KRALIZEC is? Because the Golden Path from the very beginning was just a way of avoiding Kralizec. And if it was just death from stagnation then there was no point of writing Heretics, Chapterhouse and (potentially) Dune 7, because the ending of GEoD was sufficient - the Humanity have got their No-Ships and No-Leaders (descendants of Siona) and went to the Scattering. The end. But there was continuation. That means that the Golden Path was only set in motion but wasn't totally resolved. The total meaning of the Golden Path should be explained in Dune 7 but... You know...
Children of Dune wrote:Leto peered beyond the man, said: "Here in Shuloch they still pray for dew
at the desert's edge. Go, Muriz, and pray for Kralizec. I promise you it will
come."
Because we don't include fan fiction in the canon. Or like Serkanner put it: blasphemy!P.S. (Why everyone pretend that "Hunters" and "Sandworms" doesn't exist? Why am I pretending the same thing?)
I have a certain water for you my friend! But I don't think you will like its taste...Serkanner wrote: Blasphemy! Take his water.
Oh! That means that I understood the book in a wrong way? That actually possible because I used that book for certain experiment. You see, english is not my native language and I decided to listen an audio version of the "Children" in English to upgrade my skills. That totally worked - the next books of the series was much easier to listen but it appears that the Children itself wasn't understood correctly.georgiedenbro wrote: Kralizec was inevitable and if anything the Golden Path was meant to lead to it, not avoid it.