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Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 11 Aug 2011 06:51
by lotek
Serkanner wrote:... this is three strikes out. Who are your really?


https://www.facebook.com/pages/being-a- ... 3406005211 :)

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 11 Aug 2011 09:54
by SadisticCynic
Google to the rescue again? :)

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 11 Aug 2011 13:22
by lotek

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 11 Aug 2011 17:26
by Serkanner
lotek wrote:
Serkanner wrote:... this is three strikes out. Who are your really?


https://www.facebook.com/pages/being-a- ... 3406005211 :)


Thanks ... that is spot on.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 11 Aug 2011 22:17
by lukecash12
... this is three strikes out. Who are your really?


I don't get what you mean, so my statement probably came out wrong. What I had meant was that the BG breeding program was very similar to the Golden Path, what with it's despotic hold on humanity. Smarter, prettier people, who they bred with other stallions in order to make their KH. If not for Paul they could have had a KH under their thumb, and they would have held the spice over everyone's heads.

As for the whole "who are you" deal: I have high functioning autism, so just ask for clarity if you want clarity. I'm no troll.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 12 Aug 2011 00:04
by A Thing of Eternity
Calling it the BG's own Golden Path was a little odd, but I see what you meant - their plan/path for human survival.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 12 Aug 2011 05:43
by SandChigger
Why not just write "the BG plan for human survival" then? :roll: (Not aimed at you, Thang.)

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 12 Aug 2011 05:55
by Serkanner
lukecash12 wrote: I'm no troll.


In my book you are, stronthoofd ... I would have answered in Dutch but since it's against forum policy I have to reply in English. Now you can calmly drift of into the Internet scatterings because I don't give a fuck about your autism or your academic stature. You remain a small dicked insulting bastard and I will waste no more time on the likes of you. :greetings-waveyellow:

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 13 Aug 2011 01:01
by lukecash12
Serkanner wrote:
lukecash12 wrote: I'm no troll.


In my book you are, stronthoofd ... I would have answered in Dutch but since it's against forum policy I have to reply in English. Now you can calmly drift of into the Internet scatterings because I don't give a fuck about your autism or your academic stature. You remain a small dicked insulting bastard and I will waste no more time on the likes of you. :greetings-waveyellow:


Very impressive. I have a keen interest in Dune, so I think I'll stick around. :violin:

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 13 Aug 2011 01:18
by A Thing of Eternity
Ah, good ol internet drama. :D

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 15 Aug 2011 09:15
by reverendmotherQ.
lukecash12 wrote: I can certainly agree with all of you that the BG had a whole bunch of reasons to dislike Leto II, but the fact remains that they were hypocrites. However much of an abomination he was, they would have done the same. Leto II was the perfect expression of their ideology, that he was willing to do anything and outlast anything for the survival and propogation of humanity.


But unlike the BG, who take several members worth of lives to accomplish their goals, he took it on single handedly and thus their hatred of him stems from the sheer amount of power invested in a single person that such an entity implies. I think in many ways he was the antithesis to the BG because he sought to break the universe from its reoccurring restraints and political crutches that left it doomed to be predictable - which is what the BG hoped to keep alive because humanity's predictability is what made it possible to control them. So your statement seems to over generalize Leto's goals and robs them of any of the newness of meaning that he had in them versus the BG's aims.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 15 Aug 2011 17:22
by SandRider
I'd just like to step in here for a moment & second the
"do not give a fuck about your (insert 'disability' here)" sentiment ...

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 16 Aug 2011 22:23
by lukecash12
But unlike the BG, who take several members worth of lives to accomplish their goals, he took it on single handedly and thus their hatred of him stems from the sheer amount of power invested in a single person that such an entity implies. I think in many ways he was the antithesis to the BG because he sought to break the universe from its reoccurring restraints and political crutches that left it doomed to be predictable - which is what the BG hoped to keep alive because humanity's predictability is what made it possible to control them. So your statement seems to over generalize Leto's goals and robs them of any of the newness of meaning that he had in them versus the BG's aims.


Well, had the BG had prescience of the caliber that Leto II, you think they would have stood idly by so that humanity could become extinct?

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 16 Aug 2011 22:25
by lukecash12
SandRider wrote:I'd just like to step in here for a moment & second the
"do not give a fuck about your (insert 'disability' here)" sentiment ...


And that's what you look like :arrow: :Adolf:

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 16 Aug 2011 22:32
by Nekhrun
lukecash12 wrote:
SandRider wrote:I'd just like to step in here for a moment & second the
"do not give a fuck about your (insert 'disability' here)" sentiment ...


And that's what you look like :arrow: :Adolf:

Well, it was only a matter of time before the "Christian" pastor found the Hitler smiley. :roll: Hilarious.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 17 Aug 2011 02:30
by A Thing of Eternity
lukecash12 wrote:
But unlike the BG, who take several members worth of lives to accomplish their goals, he took it on single handedly and thus their hatred of him stems from the sheer amount of power invested in a single person that such an entity implies. I think in many ways he was the antithesis to the BG because he sought to break the universe from its reoccurring restraints and political crutches that left it doomed to be predictable - which is what the BG hoped to keep alive because humanity's predictability is what made it possible to control them. So your statement seems to over generalize Leto's goals and robs them of any of the newness of meaning that he had in them versus the BG's aims.


Well, had the BG had prescience of the caliber that Leto II, you think they would have stood idly by so that humanity could become extinct?


No - but could they have figured out the solution?

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 17 Aug 2011 05:04
by inhuien
lukecash12 wrote:
But unlike the BG, who take several members worth of lives to accomplish their goals, he took it on single handedly and thus their hatred of him stems from the sheer amount of power invested in a single person that such an entity implies. I think in many ways he was the antithesis to the BG because he sought to break the universe from its reoccurring restraints and political crutches that left it doomed to be predictable - which is what the BG hoped to keep alive because humanity's predictability is what made it possible to control them. So your statement seems to over generalize Leto's goals and robs them of any of the newness of meaning that he had in them versus the BG's aims.


Well, had the BG had prescience of the caliber that Leto II, you think they would have stood idly by so that humanity could become extinct?


Leto II wrote

"WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY.
YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 17 Aug 2011 07:20
by lotek
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
lukecash12 wrote:
But unlike the BG, who take several members worth of lives to accomplish their goals, he took it on single handedly and thus their hatred of him stems from the sheer amount of power invested in a single person that such an entity implies. I think in many ways he was the antithesis to the BG because he sought to break the universe from its reoccurring restraints and political crutches that left it doomed to be predictable - which is what the BG hoped to keep alive because humanity's predictability is what made it possible to control them. So your statement seems to over generalize Leto's goals and robs them of any of the newness of meaning that he had in them versus the BG's aims.


Well, had the BG had prescience of the caliber that Leto II, you think they would have stood idly by so that humanity could become extinct?


No - but could they have figured out the solution?


as long as it's not too final...
lukecash12 wrote:
SandRider wrote:I'd just like to step in here for a moment & second the
"do not give a fuck about your (insert 'disability' here)" sentiment ...


And that's what you look like :arrow: :Adolf:


inhuien wrote:"WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY.
YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."


Nice !

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 17 Aug 2011 08:11
by inhuien
lotek wrote:
inhuien wrote:"WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY.
YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."


Nice !

Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day. :)

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 17 Aug 2011 23:48
by lukecash12
inhuien wrote:
lukecash12 wrote:
But unlike the BG, who take several members worth of lives to accomplish their goals, he took it on single handedly and thus their hatred of him stems from the sheer amount of power invested in a single person that such an entity implies. I think in many ways he was the antithesis to the BG because he sought to break the universe from its reoccurring restraints and political crutches that left it doomed to be predictable - which is what the BG hoped to keep alive because humanity's predictability is what made it possible to control them. So your statement seems to over generalize Leto's goals and robs them of any of the newness of meaning that he had in them versus the BG's aims.


Well, had the BG had prescience of the caliber that Leto II, you think they would have stood idly by so that humanity could become extinct?


Leto II wrote

"WHY DID YOUR SISTERHOOD NOT BUILD THE GOLDEN PATH? YOU KNEW THE NECESSITY.
YOUR FAILURE CONDEMNED ME, THE GOD EMPEROR, TO MILLENNIA OF PERSONAL DESPAIR."


I wouldn't be so hasty to draw a line like that. The BG didn't appear to recognize Kralizec at all throughout the series. Their primary concern was to eventually get humanity under their thumb and breed perfection. But I don't mean that in a despotic sense, having "humanity under their thumb", I mean that they wanted control the BG way.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 18 Aug 2011 02:28
by A Thing of Eternity
Freakzilla didn't draw the line, Leto II did. :wink:

I think that's the thing though, while I don't necessarily think the BG understood the need for the Golden Path, or even really what it was, Leto II meant something by that message - either he believed that they knew they should have caused the Scattering, or something like it, or he meant that he believed they should have known (or did know subconsciously)that their own plans would not succeed and they should have thought more long term.

I'm loath to debate with Leto II.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 18 Aug 2011 19:39
by lukecash12
A Thing of Eternity wrote:Freakzilla didn't draw the line, Leto II did. :wink:

I think that's the thing though, while I don't necessarily think the BG understood the need for the Golden Path, or even really what it was, Leto II meant something by that message - either he believed that they knew they should have caused the Scattering, or something like it, or he meant that he believed they should have known (or did know subconsciously)that their own plans would not succeed and they should have thought more long term.

I'm loath to debate with Leto II.


I'm more in favor of the second position you just submitted.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 18 Aug 2011 19:53
by Freakzilla
Well, you know, this was the reason the were breeding for the KH, so he could see the big picture that they could only see less than half of.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 18 Aug 2011 19:57
by A Thing of Eternity
Freakzilla wrote:Well, you know, this was the reason the were breeding for the KH, so he could see the big picture that they could only see less than half of.


Why "less than half" rather than just half? I'm under the impression the BG did not know they were going to get a prescient out of the KH.

Re: Did the BG have a justifiable position against prescience?

Posted: 18 Aug 2011 20:57
by Freakzilla
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:Well, you know, this was the reason the were breeding for the KH, so he could see the big picture that they could only see less than half of.


Why "less than half" rather than just half? I'm under the impression the BG did not know they were going to get a prescient out of the KH.


Appendix III: Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes

The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they
labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signifying "one who can be many places at
once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers
permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions.
They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the
prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. Now, attend these facts
carefully: