A macro-view of the GP

[Tleilax Master B]

I think its telling that given all of the factions in the Old Empire, we are exposed in the books to relatively few factions of the much larger Scattering. It always gave me the impression that the HMs, NFDs and even the Enemy were only a very small part of it.

"Leto's voice came in wheezing gasps: "Let them scatter, Duncan. Let them run and hide anywhere they want in any universe they choose."

"My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her."
"What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.
"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."

Great quote GEJ!

I know we've all discussed this a length before, but I still think the Siona gene was intended to be much more than just protection until after the Scattering. I think Leto II intended for a large segment of the population, or the gene pool as it were, to have protection from prescients, effectively neutralizing that power. That in conjunction with No-technologies would make it very difficult for someone like Paul or Leto II to be able to control any significant portion of the population...and without prescience, it would literally be impossible to track down all humans post-Scattering.

[GodEmperorJason]

I think its telling that given all of the factions in the Old Empire, we are exposed in the books to relatively few factions of the much larger Scattering. It always gave me the impression that the HMs, NFDs and even the Enemy were only a very small part of it.

"Leto's voice came in wheezing gasps: "Let them scatter, Duncan. Let them run and hide anywhere they want in any universe they choose."

"My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her."
"What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.
"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."

Great quote GEJ!

I know we've all discussed this a length before, but I still think the Siona gene was intended to be much more than just protection until after the Scattering. I think Leto II intended for a large segment of the population, or the gene pool as it were, to have protection from prescients, effectively neutralizing that power. That in conjunction with No-technologies would make it very difficult for someone like Paul or Leto II to be able to control any significant portion of the population...and without prescience, it would literally be impossible to track down all humans post-Scattering.

The Siona gene is a key part of the plan, as was no-technology, like he says "the Oracle cannot see her" (and for KJA that means Leto II, Paul and the Navigators of the Guild, etc, not an 'Oracle of Time') It not only allowed their escape, not that anyone was stopping them, but it also meant that no one could reign humanity back in, Prescience would be the only way to track every human, and the Siona gene, in combination with no-tech and the sheer size of the scattering, renders that possibility null.

Now let me ask this, when he says "Let them run and hide anywhere they want in any universe they choose." do you think he means literal universes (ie that the Duniverse is a Multiverse) or is he using the word for demonstrating scale? I'm open to both possibilities.

[SandChigger]

Leto II couldn't have looked ahead to see which RM found his message; most of the RM including Odrade have the Siona Gene and would have been invisible to his prescience........

THANKS, B!

That completely slipped my mind when I was discus-ing that one back and forth with Nicodemus over on MySpace! (D'uh.)

[Freakzilla]

Planned or not, the Siona gene was temporary. Teg can see no ships and I assume by the ease at which he found Odrade and Sheeana on Rakis that he could see no-people too. I believe it's Duncan that projects that people in the scattering will find a mechanical way to defeat a no-ships invisibility.

But by then it doesn't matter, humanity is to spread out for one person to rule or destroy.

[GodEmperorJason]

Humans wanted to detect objects so they invented radar, humans wanted to evade detection by radar, so they invented stealth technology, humans actively find ways to detect stealth aircraft, in Kosovo, they managed to shoot one down even. But then now we have even newer, more advanced stealth techniques. This is the spirit of the GP, Siona may be temporary, but so is Teg. Oppose this with the Old Empire where no one cared to defeat shields, they just learned to fight slower, stagnating under the current technological paradigm.

That said, I guess no one took my above question seriously, oh well.

[Freakzilla]

Now let me ask this, when he says "Let them run and hide anywhere they want in any universe they choose." do you think he means literal universes (ie that the Duniverse is a Multiverse) or is he using the word for demonstrating scale? I'm open to both possibilities.

Up until only recently, the '50s I think (Lowell?), we didn't even know there was more than one galaxy. Maybe he meant galaxy.

But then, Bellonda does bring up the multiverse idea in the latter books.

I don't like to think of it being that "cosmic" but I suppose it's possible.

Jason, don't get to distressed if your question doesn't get answered right away.

[GodEmperorJason]

When trying to see what the stated scope of the Scattering was, I happened upon some quotes that make me ask this question.

"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."

"I find it difficult to contemplate humankind spreading into an unlimited universe," Tam said. "The possibilities . . ."
"Infinite numbers game." Odrade stepped across a broken curb. "That should be repaired. We've been playing the infinity game since we learned to jump Foldspace."
There was no joy in Bellonda. "It's not a game!"
Odrade could appreciate Bellonda's feelings. We have never seen empty space. Always more galaxies. Tam's right. It's daunting when you focus on that Golden Path.
Memories of explorations gave the Sisterhood a statistical handle on it but little else. So many habitable planets in a given assemblage and, among those, an expected additional number that could be terraformed.
"What's evolving out there?" Tamalane demanded.
A question they could not answer. Ask what Infinity might produce and the only answer possible was, "Anything...
". "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many . . . or even an infinite number of expanding and collapsing bubbles."

I have no opinion personally, FH could be using the term to represent scale, though it is directly speculated in Chapterhouse whether a Multiverse exists.

[GodEmperorJason]

LOL, looks like we were both posting at once Freak, and both brought up Bell, LOL

[Rakis]

When trying to see what the stated scope of the Scattering was, I happened upon some quotes that make me ask this question.

"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."

"I find it difficult to contemplate humankind spreading into an unlimited universe," Tam said. "The possibilities . . ."
"Infinite numbers game." Odrade stepped across a broken curb. "That should be repaired. We've been playing the infinity game since we learned to jump Foldspace."
There was no joy in Bellonda. "It's not a game!"
Odrade could appreciate Bellonda's feelings. We have never seen empty space. Always more galaxies. Tam's right. It's daunting when you focus on that Golden Path.
Memories of explorations gave the Sisterhood a statistical handle on it but little else. So many habitable planets in a given assemblage and, among those, an expected additional number that could be terraformed.
"What's evolving out there?" Tamalane demanded.
A question they could not answer. Ask what Infinity might produce and the only answer possible was, "Anything...
". "We don't even know if Foldspace introduces us to one universe or many . . . or even an infinite number of expanding and collapsing bubbles."

I have no opinion personally, FH could be using the term to represent scale, though it is directly speculated in Chapterhouse whether a Multiverse exists.

And another quote at the end of Chapterhouse

"We're an unidentifiable ship in an unidentifiable universe," Idaho
said.

Maybe FH was going for a multiverse setting in book 7, at least with Duncan and the crew...just to prove the point that the GP was beyond our universe and that humanity is safe from Kralizec...

[loremaster]

I dont think that the Siona gene has (yet) been penetrated. I see your logic in the argument Freak, but i think if Teg really COULD see through the gene then both his reaction AND his actions would have been very different. It would have at least been mentioned. The siona gene is the PERMANENT limiting factor on oracular vision now. Prescients can see local currents (e.g. the navigator bought in to find idaho) but the prevalence of the gene means building up accurate pictures of the universe (a la Paul) is impossible now.
But OTOH the point to the scattering is an infinite universe, where anything could happen.... so that would logically suggest it CAN be penetrated..... but then this argument is circular in itself since it also suggests that ANOTHER Siona Gene MKII would arise, and so on ad infinitum.

And you could argue that no Prescient is ever safe since Paul could see navigators in the original (BUT I think Frank decided to backtrack on this after he decided prescience could be so much more interesting with conflicting visions)

I personally think that although they produce the same effect, the actual cause of prescient invisibilty in the siona gene and no-fields is entirely different (it has to be, one is organic). I always liked the explanation of "Latent" prescients. That was certainly the impression i got after Siona's desert trial, something like a "subconscious reverend mother.
She was sensitive to the golden path and its peril. and she felt the calls and the lessons of ancestors, but they could not penetrate her consciously, only a shadow to be carried into the world subconsciously. She also had atreides-amplified sensitivity to time - which came to fruition in miles etc....
The REAL question is.... was Miles predicted by the tyrant (logically, not presciently).... was he specifically bred for? Or did the tyrant know mutations would occur in Atreides but not care particularly what they would be?

[Phaedrus]

I dont think that the Siona gene has (yet) been penetrated. I see your logic in the argument Freak, but i think if Teg really COULD see through the gene then both his reaction AND his actions would have been very different. It would have at least been mentioned. The siona gene is the PERMANENT limiting factor on oracular vision now. Prescients can see local currents (e.g. the navigator bought in to find idaho) but the prevalence of the gene means building up accurate pictures of the universe (a la Paul) is impossible now.
But OTOH the point to the scattering is an infinite universe, where anything could happen.... so that would logically suggest it CAN be penetrated..... but then this argument is circular in itself since it also suggests that ANOTHER Siona Gene MKII would arise, and so on ad infinitum.

And you could argue that no Prescient is ever safe since Paul could see navigators in the original (BUT I think Frank decided to backtrack on this after he decided prescience could be so much more interesting with conflicting visions)

Leto could see Guild Navigators. Paul couldn't.

I personally think that although they produce the same effect, the actual cause of prescient invisibilty in the siona gene and no-fields is entirely different (it has to be, one is organic). I always liked the explanation of "Latent" prescients. That was certainly the impression i got after Siona's desert trial, something like a "subconscious reverend mother.
She was sensitive to the golden path and its peril. and she felt the calls and the lessons of ancestors, but they could not penetrate her consciously, only a shadow to be carried into the world subconsciously. She also had atreides-amplified sensitivity to time - which came to fruition in miles etc....

But maybe the cause of invisibility in the no-chambers and no-ships is the prescient variable in the Ixian Machines? That would tie everything together nicely, wouldn't it?

The REAL question is.... was Miles predicted by the tyrant (logically, not presciently).... was he specifically bred for? Or did the tyrant know mutations would occur in Atreides but not care particularly what they would be?

I'm pretty sure he had a pretty good idea what was going to happen. After all, with centuries of BG breeding in his head he predicted Siona and bred for her, I'm sure he could figure out where that would lead in the long run. But he probably preferred not to know. So if anything, he had a guess, and we never knew whether he had one, or if he did, what it was. But I'd assume he had a good idea. He usually did on everything else.

[SandChigger]

Miles Teg is born and lives (both times) well after Leto's "period of interest", that four thousand years which he actively (fore)views and manipulates events in, and beyond which he only sneaks "glimpses" to ensure the GP has succeeded. I am dubious as to whether he foresaw Teg and his abilities; I'm convinced he did nothing specific to bring him (and them) about.

[Phaedrus]

Miles Teg is born and lives (both times) well after Leto's "period of interest", that four thousand years which he actively (fore)views and manipulates events in, and beyond which he only sneaks "glimpses" to ensure the GP has succeeded. I am dubious as to whether he foresaw Teg and his abilities; I'm convinced he did nothing specific to bring him (and them) about.

I agree. I think he probably had some idea what would eventually happen in the Atreides line, to some point. I don't think he arrived at that point through prescience, and certainly didn't act to change anything beyond the Siona gene, but nonetheless, I'm sure he had some idea what the post-Golden Path universe would be like, in most aspects. He wouldn't be Leto if he didn't.

[Crysknife]

Loremaster, how could Leto see Teg in any vision if the Siona gene was the Permanent solution to prescience? It would seem that Leto defeated that perfect solution before it even started. I don't see how anything could be infered by Leto either, with all the no-people running around.

I do think that Teg could penetrate the no-gene. There is no way he could know where to meet up with the worm on Rakis if he couldn't. Remember, Teg couldn't see the future like Paul or Leto, he was limited to a few moments ahead, and as I recall, he chose to die, so his actions were perfectly valid in every situation. Leto’s goal was to get humanity past a single threat, so even if a prescient came along that could influence a local population, humanity as a whole was still way beyond his/her control.

[SandChigger]

Argh. I keep forgetting that wrinkle.

Leto couldn't see Sionna (remember the empty footprints beside him in the sand?) so naturally he couldn't see Teg, or Odrade finding the spice hoard. When he peeked ahead, beyond the discovery of Dar-es-Balat, ALL he would be able to see would be people without the marker or evidence of human action, but not the actual people causing it, in places where the marker was predominant. And by that he would know the GP succeeded.

[loremaster]

Phaedrus said:

But maybe the cause of invisibility in the no-chambers and no-ships is the prescient variable in the Ixian Machines? That would tie everything together nicely, wouldn't it?

Bullseye, i had this thought before and forgot about it, masterful insight.

Phaedrus also said

Leto could see navigators, paul couldnt.

Paul could initially he quite clearly desribes being able to see them in dune, the first person in a long time to see them. I've said before that i think this may be a frank inconsistency, since his opinions and ideas changed as he carried on writing (prescience is more interesting when it isnt absolute, and can be hidden from...in DM, the rules of prescience were changed to include other prescients...., and their spheres of influence etc).

But paul definately saw them in dune.

crysknife said

Loremaster, how could Leto see Teg in any vision if the Siona gene was the Permanent solution to prescience? It would seem that Leto defeated that perfect solution before it even started. I don't see how anything could be infered by Leto either, with all the no-people running around.

I do think that Teg could penetrate the no-gene. There is no way he could know where to meet up with the worm on Rakis if he couldn't. Remember, Teg couldn't see the future like Paul or Leto, he was limited to a few moments ahead, and as I recall, he chose to die, so his actions were perfectly valid in every situation. Leto’s goal was to get humanity past a single threat, so even if a prescient came along that could influence a local population, humanity as a whole was still way beyond his/her control.

I didnt say leto could see teg, i dont think he could. i dont think ANYONE could see sion-etians.

[Freakzilla]

"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

I thought that relevant to the conversation.

I've always thought of the Siona Invisibility as latent Atreides prescience which creates a sphere of Creation around that person just enough to hide them.

[Rakis]

"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."

I thought that relevant to the conversation.

I've always thought of the Siona Invisibility as latent Atreides prescience which creates a sphere of Creation around that person just enough to hide them.

Like the Invisible man movie; you see only the result of his actions...

[Spicelon]

Leto II couldn't have looked ahead to see which RM found his message; most of the RM including Odrade have the Siona Gene and would have been invisible to his prescience........

THANKS, B!

That completely slipped my mind when I was discus-ing that one back and forth with Nicodemus over on MySpace! (D'uh.)

Is it possible that he didn't have to know exactly which RM would read it? To use an analogy from the books, you can't see a fish in muddy water, but when it moves you can see its wake. If he knew a RM would find his words several millenia in the future, he could hedge his bets pretty well and construct his message for maximum effect.

[SandChigger]

Hiya.

That's the way I read it: he left clues that only an RM with OM could find and correctly interpret. He didn't (couldn't) see exactly WHO found it, but he knew that the BG would.

He would have been able to see when the chamber was opened or emptied out, though, even if the people doing it were invisible, no?

[orald]

Hiya.

That's the way I read it: he left clues that only an RM with OM could find and correctly interpret. He didn't (couldn't) see exactly WHO found it, but he knew that the BG would.

That's why he says a RM will read his words.

He would have been able to see when the chamber was opened or emptied out, though, even if the people doing it were invisible, no?

Probably so.

I was just thinking that the "Harkonnen man sacrificers" comment would indicate he's out of date, but then again at about the same time we learn of the Harkonnen no-globe, with 21(?) skeletons. Could it be a refrence to it?

[Spicelon]

Howdy ho!

He would have been able to see when the chamber was opened or emptied out, though, even if the people doing it were invisible, no?

Totally. IMNSHO of course. This always presented me with a conundrum though. I think it's Cedric (Edric?) from DM who first lets on that even though one can't "see" certain blindspots in the Oracle, one can still infer quite a bit by observing the interactions around these blind spots. Applying that to the GE, you'd have to think that he's a pretty bright worm even without prescience, so I'd think the scope of what he knew extended well beyond what he could "see" or not see with prescience. IF THAT is the case, I find it odd that any of the so called no-projects actually surprised him.

I am totally due for a re-read.

[orald]

It's Edric. Quite an ugly name IMO...for whatever reason...

God Leto wasn't surprised by any of the no-projects, in fact, he was quite certain about what the Ixians were doing, and gave that BG he sent good instructions on what she was supposed to find on Ix. Not too surprising I guess, since he already ordered an earlier version of it to hide his printers.

[Spicelon]

It's Edric. Quite an ugly name IMO...for whatever reason...

God Leto wasn't surprised...since he already ordered an earlier version of it to hide his printers.

Ooooo, I forgot about that. Good catch. So much to read, so little time.

[SandChigger]

Ahp, the Dar-es-Balat no-chamber was either THE prototype or not far removed from it.


(Don't waste time worrying about time! )