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- Freakzilla
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- orald
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- orald
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There was nothing wrong about my comparison of Hitler with Leto. I have the quotes to back it up.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
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It was me who compared one expression by Leto that can be compared to similar expression ( predictions ) by Hitler. Both state during conversations that without them there would be no humanity, or in Hitler's case Germans, left if their plans would fail.orald wrote:Lies! All lies!Serkanner wrote:There was nothing wrong about my comparison of Hitler with Leto. I have the quotes to back it up.
And isn't that Paul who compares himself with Hitler anyway?
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
- orald
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Oh, yes, and I took note of that comment because it had such merrit, of course.
Hey, don't forget Leto's made a 4th reich that endured for a thousand* years, burned books(and people), AND was dabbling in eugenics! OMG Leto was a nazi!
I also find direct parrallels between Leto's tower room and Hitler's Eagle's Nest(?), Leto's tunnels and underground chambers and Hitler's bunkers and how Leto survived numerous assassination attempts by his closest advisors(a past Duncan, with a bomb in his briefcase) much like Hitler did.
Clearly, Leto is based on Hitler- even their names suggest it- both have "L" and "E" in it.
*Well, three and a half thousand, but who counts?
Hey, don't forget Leto's made a 4th reich that endured for a thousand* years, burned books(and people), AND was dabbling in eugenics! OMG Leto was a nazi!
I also find direct parrallels between Leto's tower room and Hitler's Eagle's Nest(?), Leto's tunnels and underground chambers and Hitler's bunkers and how Leto survived numerous assassination attempts by his closest advisors(a past Duncan, with a bomb in his briefcase) much like Hitler did.
Clearly, Leto is based on Hitler- even their names suggest it- both have "L" and "E" in it.
*Well, three and a half thousand, but who counts?
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
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Anymore bullshit?orald wrote:Oh, yes, and I took note of that comment because it had such merrit, of course.
Hey, don't forget Leto's made a 4th reich that endured for a thousand* years, burned books(and people), AND was dabbling in eugenics! OMG Leto was a nazi!
I also find direct parrallels between Leto's tower room and Hitler's Eagle's Nest(?), Leto's tunnels and underground chambers and Hitler's bunkers and how Leto survived numerous assassination attempts by his closest advisors(a past Duncan, with a bomb in his briefcase) much like Hitler did.
Clearly, Leto is based on Hitler- even their names suggest it- both have "L" and "E" in it.
*Well, three and a half thousand, but who counts?
I didn't say that Leto was based on Hitler. I just mentioned those two expressions were similar. I came across the Hitler reference while reading the great biography by Bullock. Nowhere did I try to state that Herbert based Leto on Hitler. Jeez.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
- SandChigger
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Don't bother, Serkanner. This from the page before explains it all:
Usually it's amusing.
Anything he perceives as disrespectful to his precious God Leto prompts a tirade.orald wrote:Seems I have to uphold God Leto's reputation in this powindah infested forum, as no one else seems to do so.
Usually it's amusing.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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I actually have thought about the Golden Path in terms of free will before. I'm not sure it's an accurate description of FH's intent, but I find it interesting to consider:
It's mentioned several times in the series that the prescient creates the future by seeing it-- I'm pretty sure not in those words, but pretty close to it. The comment this makes on the rest of humanity is that they are unable to create the future, since they can't control it. This makes it seem like they are cogs in a universal machine, while prescients have the ability to see the future and choose from the various paths that they see. An oracle cannot see another prescient due to the presence of free will in that person's actions.
So invisibility to prescience is equivalent to free will. The Siona gene, then, is a genetic manipulation that instills the individual with free will without the additional capacity for prescience. No- technology could then be a technology that allows for the exercise of free will within its confines-- still without the ability of prescience.
I think it might be possible to interpret the Golden Path as Leto's work in this direction. Maybe through building free will into such large portions of humanity, Leto has ensured the Scattering (by allowing so many people to choose their own course of action, it would be almost a statistical necessity that people would choose to scatter. It would, however, be impossible to determine WHO specifically, etc.)
So yeah, I'm not even sure I agree with the ideas I just posted, but I do find them interesting to consider.
It's mentioned several times in the series that the prescient creates the future by seeing it-- I'm pretty sure not in those words, but pretty close to it. The comment this makes on the rest of humanity is that they are unable to create the future, since they can't control it. This makes it seem like they are cogs in a universal machine, while prescients have the ability to see the future and choose from the various paths that they see. An oracle cannot see another prescient due to the presence of free will in that person's actions.
So invisibility to prescience is equivalent to free will. The Siona gene, then, is a genetic manipulation that instills the individual with free will without the additional capacity for prescience. No- technology could then be a technology that allows for the exercise of free will within its confines-- still without the ability of prescience.
I think it might be possible to interpret the Golden Path as Leto's work in this direction. Maybe through building free will into such large portions of humanity, Leto has ensured the Scattering (by allowing so many people to choose their own course of action, it would be almost a statistical necessity that people would choose to scatter. It would, however, be impossible to determine WHO specifically, etc.)
So yeah, I'm not even sure I agree with the ideas I just posted, but I do find them interesting to consider.
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that the thoughts acquire speed; the lips aquire stains; the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
- SandRider
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and the refugees from the shithole that is Merritt's Wasteland
come stumbling in. Are you badly hurt ? Do you need a medic ?
Chig, get this guy some water.
now, I ain't sure I understood half of what you said, but I didn't see
no references to tranny robots, so welcome.
those boys Over There were 2stoopid4U, eh ?
come stumbling in. Are you badly hurt ? Do you need a medic ?
Chig, get this guy some water.
now, I ain't sure I understood half of what you said, but I didn't see
no references to tranny robots, so welcome.
those boys Over There were 2stoopid4U, eh ?
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
- SandChigger
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Hopefully Freak can give us the exact references for the supporting quotes.
I personally have never liked a literal interpretation of the idea that the mere act of seeing the future creates it, because it makes no sense to me. Action is what has results. (Or inaction.) For prescience to create a result, it must be an action of some sort. I prefer to see it as a perception, something more passive. (Think here of the ancient Greek theory of vision, with beams shooting from the eyes, rather than what we now know is the truer view, of reflected light flowing in.) But at the same time I have no good explanation for why one prescient cannot see another.
I find your ideas about free will rather depressing. Dune is already too much about special, extraordinary people. Now you would take even free will from Everyman?
Remember that there is nothing magical or truly supernatural about prescience in the Duniverse. Paul can see because of who he is (his genetics, developed and nuRtured over millennia by the Bene Gesserit, and his Mentat training) and what he does: ingesting the spice (an actual physical chemical substance). Seeing is making smacks too much of magic (and super midgets) for me.
I personally have never liked a literal interpretation of the idea that the mere act of seeing the future creates it, because it makes no sense to me. Action is what has results. (Or inaction.) For prescience to create a result, it must be an action of some sort. I prefer to see it as a perception, something more passive. (Think here of the ancient Greek theory of vision, with beams shooting from the eyes, rather than what we now know is the truer view, of reflected light flowing in.) But at the same time I have no good explanation for why one prescient cannot see another.
I find your ideas about free will rather depressing. Dune is already too much about special, extraordinary people. Now you would take even free will from Everyman?
Remember that there is nothing magical or truly supernatural about prescience in the Duniverse. Paul can see because of who he is (his genetics, developed and nuRtured over millennia by the Bene Gesserit, and his Mentat training) and what he does: ingesting the spice (an actual physical chemical substance). Seeing is making smacks too much of magic (and super midgets) for me.
Last edited by SandChigger on 17 Dec 2008 10:50, edited 1 time in total.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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some interesting insights there dunepunk. And a nice follow up from chig.
I think i would build a third model, to do with "creating" the future via prescience.
I always thought the idea of a prescient "locking" the future onto a fixed course was most significant. Consider the following scenario (a la butterfly effect):
I become prescient. I see that if i step out onto the road at 11.13pm tomorrow i die. Therefore i adjust my actions accordingly. This creates a new future, one where (hypothetically) I would suffer a different fate. Now this new fate might be to miss my train and end up meeting the girl of my dreams. OR it might be getting stabbed 10 minutes later in an alleyway and bleeding to death over half an hour. If it was the latter i would then adjust my actions accordingly. And so on until i found a situation which, knowing the consequences I chose to do it anyway.
To me this is the "locking" of the future onto a fixed path. Only the interaction of another prescients vision/meddling will derail it.
Textual evidence? Not much. But it is always how i have pictured prescience generating a fixed path.
Although, Chig. I'm sure we've debated before but im not convinced of the role of mentat abilities in the role of prescience? Do you need to be a mentat to be prescient? Alia wasnt (AFAIK). But she probably had some in OM.
I'm much more interested in the link between prescience and OM actually. Prompted by the quote about Siona at the end of GEoD. (massively paraphrasing):
I think i would build a third model, to do with "creating" the future via prescience.
I always thought the idea of a prescient "locking" the future onto a fixed course was most significant. Consider the following scenario (a la butterfly effect):
I become prescient. I see that if i step out onto the road at 11.13pm tomorrow i die. Therefore i adjust my actions accordingly. This creates a new future, one where (hypothetically) I would suffer a different fate. Now this new fate might be to miss my train and end up meeting the girl of my dreams. OR it might be getting stabbed 10 minutes later in an alleyway and bleeding to death over half an hour. If it was the latter i would then adjust my actions accordingly. And so on until i found a situation which, knowing the consequences I chose to do it anyway.
To me this is the "locking" of the future onto a fixed path. Only the interaction of another prescients vision/meddling will derail it.
Textual evidence? Not much. But it is always how i have pictured prescience generating a fixed path.
Although, Chig. I'm sure we've debated before but im not convinced of the role of mentat abilities in the role of prescience? Do you need to be a mentat to be prescient? Alia wasnt (AFAIK). But she probably had some in OM.
I'm much more interested in the link between prescience and OM actually. Prompted by the quote about Siona at the end of GEoD. (massively paraphrasing):
she walks amongst us, amongst the memories, but she is not seen, she is safe from possession
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
- Freakzilla
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sandchigger
Sometimes, the two add together to create a sort of constructive interference, other times they are alongside and cancel out to create a no-future. One which isnt locked.
To add to my earlier comment too. Think Schroedingers Cat.
The bastard is alive or dead until A prescient collapses the field and the cat has to be either alive or dead.
IOW, there is no way to know if i will choose the red pill or the blue pill, until that decision point actually arrives. Philosophically, i havent chosen until that decision point arrives. UNLESS a prescient considers the matter beforehand. A prescient is one which can collapse a quantum uncertainty WITHOUT observing it.
Check that for a technobabble answer.
I go for a sort of "waves and interference" type approach. A la Bats and Echolocation.But at the same time I have no good explanation for why one prescient cannot see another.
Sometimes, the two add together to create a sort of constructive interference, other times they are alongside and cancel out to create a no-future. One which isnt locked.
To add to my earlier comment too. Think Schroedingers Cat.
The bastard is alive or dead until A prescient collapses the field and the cat has to be either alive or dead.
IOW, there is no way to know if i will choose the red pill or the blue pill, until that decision point actually arrives. Philosophically, i havent chosen until that decision point arrives. UNLESS a prescient considers the matter beforehand. A prescient is one which can collapse a quantum uncertainty WITHOUT observing it.
Check that for a technobabble answer.
The HLP hasnt released Frank's notes yet, Brian hasn't got the handwriting quite right!
- Freakzilla
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- Freakzilla
- Lead Singer and Driver of the Winnebego
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"There are people and things in our universe which I know only by their
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."
~Dune Messiah
Here's my take on prescient invisibility:
FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.
The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.
This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.
I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.
What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.
effects," Edric said, his fish mouth held in a thin line. "I know they have been
here . . . there . . . somewhere. As water creatures stir up the currents in
their passage, so the prescient stir up Time. I have seen where your husband has
been; never have I seen him nor the people who truly share his aims and
loyalties. This is the concealment which an adept gives to those who are his."
~Dune Messiah
Here's my take on prescient invisibility:
FH likes to say that the oracle creates the future but that's simplistic. The (powerfull) prescient sees all possible futures and chooses a course of action which will cause one particular vision to become reality. This, of itself, is why prescients can't see each other.
The oracle creates a sphere of influence around him when he chooses a vision, the size of which varies directly with the magnitude of their prescience. For example, Leto's might cover his multi-galactic empire, Paul's was a little smaller. A Guild Navigator's would have to be at least large enough to cover a Hieghliner. One oracle can not see into another oracles sphere of influence because they don't know which vision the other will choose to "create" their own reality.
This brings me to the Siona Gene, which is basically latent prescience with a sphere of influence that only covers the individual. They cannot consciously use the prescience but it is still there and it is enough to conceal them.
I hope that makes sense, it does in my head but it's difficult to put into words.
What really made me think of this idea was Bellonda's comment about foldspace possibly introducing us to alternate/parallel universes. Expanding and collapsing bubbles.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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I would have liked if FH had written more about the Lost Ones in Dune 7, but instead we got thinking machines, an insecure A.I. and a cross-dressing robot, and the super-duper KH.GodEmperorJason wrote:I think its telling that given all of the factions in the Old Empire, we are exposed in the books to relatively few factions of the much larger Scattering. It always gave me the impression that the HMs, NFDs and even the Enemy were only a very small part of it.
"Leto's voice came in wheezing gasps: "Let them scatter, Duncan. Let them run and hide anywhere they want in any universe they choose.""My gift," Leto said. "Nobody will find the descendants of Siona. The Oracle cannot see her."
"What?" They spoke in unison, leaning close to hear his fading voice.
"I give you a new kind of time without parallels," he said. "It will always diverge. There will be no concurrent points on its curves. I give you the Golden Path. That is my gift. Never again will you have the kinds of concurrence that once you had."