Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I'm coming to the end of Heretics and I've been thinking that Odrade's discovery of Sietch Tabr might be similar to Leto's testing of Siona and Moneo. Would you say she was sensitized to the Golden Path after reading Leto's words?

I think she was sensitized, even more than she already was, to the possible destruction of the The Sisterhood. Or at least, the end of it as she knew it.

Being a decendant of Siona, she would have OM of Siona's test and vision.

She (and others) didn't need to be tuned into it, it is bred into them... the "lesson their bones would remember".

Well that too, of course. I was thinking of his request that they join him in his loneliness (something like that!). It's one of the more interesting parts of Heretics. I think Leto had another lesson for the BG, perhaps he saw their denial of attachments and was warning them.

Mandy wrote:Well that too, of course. I was thinking of his request that they join him in his loneliness (something like that!). It's one of the more interesting parts of Heretics. I think Leto had another lesson for the BG, perhaps he saw their denial of attachments and was warning them.

He was basically condemning the BG because they saw the need for the GP but didn't do anything, which condemned him.

His message was to stop being a secret society and get back into the mainstream of humanity.

Yeah, the "Noble purpose" arc of the story that brought the BG into action (seeding of other worlds with sandtrouts,etc).

I wondered if it was just coincidence that Odrade found the cave and became Mother Superior with the power to act on Leto's challenge, or if Leto had forseen it, even with Odrade having the Siona gene? (or was it just a plot device )...

Rakis wrote:Yeah, the "Noble purpose" arc of the story that brought the BG into action (seeding of other worlds with sandtrouts,etc).

I wondered if it was just coincidence that Odrade found the cave and became Mother Superior with the power to act on Leto's challenge, or if Leto had forseen it, even with Odrade having the Siona gene? (or was it just a plot device )...

I believe Leto when he said he didn't look past his time except to ensure the GPs survival.

Prescience was not his only power, he also had a wealth of RM and Mentats in OM.

Leto's inscription was a serious wake-up call for all of the BG, I don't think it would have mattered which RM found it... and only a RM COULD HAVE found it, through OM.

Freakzilla wrote:Being a decendant of Siona, she would have OM of Siona's test and vision.

She (and others) didn't need to be tuned into it, it is bred into them... the "lesson their bones would remember".

I know all the BG have the Siona gene now, and her memories, but I don't think they (in general) viewed the GP the same way. They understand what Leto did, and why, but I think they were somewhat blinded by their anger over his treatment of them. When Odrade made the discovery at Sietch Tabr it was like having Leto reach out from the past to wake her up.

Ugh.. sometimes I use wikipedia to make sure I'm spelling names correctly. Some of the entries about the BG are horribly written and incorrect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dune_Bene_Gesserit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe there's more than a little jealousy mixed in too? He made the Missionaria Protectiva look like Girl Scouts.

Definitely! Jealousy and hurt feelings, even though they decided feelings are bad.

Mandy wrote:Definitely! Jealousy and hurt feelings, even though they decided feelings are bad.

I think Odrade wanted to change that though. The merger with the HM might make them a little more in touch with them.

I don't think they really though feelings were bad, letting them show or affect you was.

In Chapterhouse strong feelings are definitely to be avoided, not just hidden. They're constantly watching each other for signs of love or hate, even mild affection. Odrade never forgot the love of momma Sibia, which is what made her different and so dangerous in the eyes of the other Sisters. They consider love a weakness, and an evolutionary leftover no longer needed (by them, anyway).

Mandy wrote:In Chapterhouse strong feelings are definitely to be avoided, not just hidden. They're constantly watching each other for signs of love or hate, even mild affection. Odrade never forgot the love of momma Sibia, which is what made her different and so dangerous in the eyes of the other Sisters. They consider love a weakness, and an evolutionary leftover no longer needed (by them, anyway).

But they don't totally avoid emotions, they use them.

They used the emotions of others to read them and manipulate them, they tried to avoid and weed out strong emotions in themselves. By the time of Chapterhouse they'd become pretty stoic, which almost did them in.

Mandy wrote:They used the emotions of others to read them and manipulate them, they tried to avoid and weed out strong emotions in themselves. By the time of Chapterhouse they'd become pretty stoic, which almost did them in.

I dissagree, Odrade was loving, Bellonda was angry, Tamalane was, well... old and meloncholy, knd of.

They also read their own emotions, this happens throughout the series.

Odrade had to hide her loving nature, the proctors tried to train it out of her, but had to settle for something less, and anger isn't the same thing. Anger is OK, hate isn't (too close to love). You don't really get to know much of anything about Tamalane, I don't remember there being even one instance of her internal dialog.

I just read Heretics and Chapterhouse and through both books they were constantly harping on the dangers of love, (Jessica's mistake). They used emotion as a weapon.. the whole Dar and Tar thing was calculated.