Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

SandChigger wrote:And in trying to understand it they probably overanalyzed it as well.

I think more than anything they wanted his secrets of how he engineered his religion.

wait, wait, wait ....

let's go back and morpbk explain to me how the "floppy disk" "undid" the "mainframe" ...

SandRider wrote:let's go back and morpbk explain to me how the "floppy disk" "undid" the "mainframe" ...

If you really want a full explanation, you should consult Pierre Lévy, but the gist of it is that, up to the apple ][, all the "personal computers" were mere curiosity, and then the surprisingly cheap floppy drive created by Woz changed the whole cost-benefit landscape, making 123 and others possible, and after a few decades making the "personal computer" the most important "computer", to the point that today's mainframes are mostly comprised of a series of cheap desktop-alike computers linked by cheap ethernet devices -- likened to the cheap floppy. Lévy has this cool analysis were he shows that most everything else that the ][ had many others had also, but the floppy drive was what tilted the scales.

But actually none of that is important to the previous argument, you just know that the PC turned the Mainframe world upside down. Don't you?

nah, I ain't go no fucking idea .... I thought the DEC1170 was going to evolve into Skynet around 84,
but them UNIX coders at SunMicro nipped that nightmare in the bud ... I don't recall DARPAnet being
run on from floppies, tho .... and I guess server blocks ain't "mainframes", huh ? .... yeah, thank God
for those Apple Lisa's, or the Space Shuttle program woulda never happened ... and I read on the
internet that CERN is functioning on an iPad now ...

the point is, this is a prime example of your asininity ... you've got some basic facts, and take the
crazy leap of logic to make an exaggerated point ... "floppy" disk technology had been around since
early Xerox-Parc days (point&click mouse, too) but not of much use at the time ... I loaded control
data into a HP "micro-computer" on 10" floppies in hydrodams in the mid 70s ... it took IBM to shove
the "PC" down the business world's throat ... and Bill Gates to shove MSDOS and it's bastard spawn
down the rest of the world's throat ...

you're saying the "floppy" disc is responsible for the way we use computers now, and that's only correct
in a round-about way ... IBM market share + Bill Gates monopoly is the model we've been forced to use ...
guys at SunMicro didn't give a damn about floppies and "personal computers" in 1982, and still don't ...

guess which group built the net ?

Jim Harwood is still dead, the Scattering is the Golden Path, the Brazilian Soccer Team's on steriods,
life is not like a box of fucking chocolates, and I didn't say read the books more, I said read these
threads more before spouting off ... you'll find alot of what you've been told has been said before ...
and will be said again ....

btw, you have new nickname: Yes, but ... ...

What the fuck does this have to do with Siaynoq?

very little ... well, absolutely nothing ...

I was just grumpy, and mrspck sent me an annoying "can't we all just get along" PM,
and I took it out on the board, and I was kinda drunk and it was one o'clock in the
morning ...

sorry about that ...

BTW, what's Siaynoq ?

SandRider wrote:BTW, what's Siaynoq ?

I think it's a Polynesian egg dish.

Having only read the last two pages i cannot guarantee MrspBRK hasn't brain-farted at an earlier point in this thread but i think i understand what he is saying to a degree.

Though the mechanism was scatter (in terms of both distance, direction and more abstract forms like "diverging cultures" such as living in trees, getting away from feudalism, matriarchal societies etc) i think MRSPBRK means that there were certain conditions which had to be overcome too.

It wasnt just enough to make people scatter - otherwise EVENTUALLY they would feel this nostalgia/curiosity/ for the "old empire" and come back. Part of the golden path was homogenisation of human history over 3,000 years so that most of it was eradicated, what was left was cheapened and people felt no prestige attached to heritage, rather they felt that the FUTURE held more promise. The effect of this was to KEEEP humanity scattering, ever onwards.

Related to that, instilling a wander-lust by forcing humanity to stay put, either on planet or in local regions or whatever. Suppressing the ability to travel reinforced the desire to travel.

Freedom from spice - pre-scattering travel and society was hinged around the spice. One of the things which MADE the scattering so effective was Leto removing this spice dependancy.

Maturation of humanity - such as the massively reduced rate of conflicts quoted at the start of heretics. Maybe most were avoided because there was less competition for space or resources ("Go somewhere else") but i think some were the part of deep psychological changes forced on them by Leto.

And i think another, which is worthy of debate - is the idea that leto empowered the bene gesserit as custodians of the golden path (I bequeath to you.....) etc. I think he knew that from time to time pressures and key logs might build up in the scattering which would threaten significant chunks of humanity, or maybe snowball. So he installed the HM/BG hybrids as guardians to watch for future threats from the sidelines.

Ah, but he also said the BG would meet the same fate as all others, so they could not be the guardians of the GP forever.

Of course the GP took a lot of pre-planning and conditioning, that's one of the reasons Leto had to take on the sandtrout skin to reign for 3500 years.

loremaster wrote:And i think another, which is worthy of debate - is the idea that leto empowered the bene gesserit as custodians of the golden path (I bequeath to you.....) etc. I think he knew that from time to time pressures and key logs might build up in the scattering which would threaten significant chunks of humanity, or maybe snowball. So he installed the HM/BG hybrids as guardians to watch for future threats from the sidelines.

I'll try to comment on your post with more depth later, but for now: Isn't it just too convenient that our very own Siona 2.0, namely Sheeana, appears on the BG plate instead of "out there" in the scattered worlds?

mrpsbrk wrote:

loremaster wrote:And i think another, which is worthy of debate - is the idea that leto empowered the bene gesserit as custodians of the golden path (I bequeath to you.....) etc. I think he knew that from time to time pressures and key logs might build up in the scattering which would threaten significant chunks of humanity, or maybe snowball. So he installed the HM/BG hybrids as guardians to watch for future threats from the sidelines.

I'll try to comment on your post with more depth later, but for now: Isn't it just too convenient that our very own Siona 2.0, namely Sheeana, appears on the BG plate instead of "out there" in the scattered worlds?

Where else would someone who can control the worms appear?

Freakzilla wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:

loremaster wrote:And i think another, which is worthy of debate - is the idea that leto empowered the bene gesserit as custodians of the golden path (I bequeath to you.....) etc. I think he knew that from time to time pressures and key logs might build up in the scattering which would threaten significant chunks of humanity, or maybe snowball. So he installed the HM/BG hybrids as guardians to watch for future threats from the sidelines.

I'll try to comment on your post with more depth later, but for now: Isn't it just too convenient that our very own Siona 2.0, namely Sheeana, appears on the BG plate instead of "out there" in the scattered worlds?

Where else would someone who can control the worms appear?

Scytale said: "Listening carefully to the teacher, one acquires an education."

loremaster wrote:Having only read the last two pages i cannot guarantee MrspBRK hasn't brain-farted at an earlier point in this thread but i think i understand what he is saying to a degree.

Oh, great, now we got people actually trying to interpret the mrpork's bullshit?

SandRider wrote:mrspck sent me an annoying "can't we all just get along" PM

Aw, did he really? mrspock must be sweet on you; I certainly didn't get one!

Or maybe it's more of a white-flag trucey sort of thingie?

Fix bayonets. Take no prisoners. Slaughter the mules. Fuck 'em.

~General Nathan Bedford Forrest, Ft. Pillow, 1862

SandRider wrote:Fix bayonets. Take no prisoners. Slaughter the mules. Fuck 'em.

~General Nathan Bedford Forrest, Ft. Pillow, 1862

Mule fucking, always a great way to calm the men down.

Rob

Didn't Asimov include that in the Foundation books?

Robspierre wrote:

SandRider wrote:Fix bayonets. Take no prisoners. Slaughter the mules. Fuck 'em.

~General Nathan Bedford Forrest, Ft. Pillow, 1862

Mule fucking, always a great way to calm the men down.

Rob

mrdrivel wrote:THEMATIC ANALYSIS: Yes, but. I find this theory to be a bit jejune for Leto who was a worm without a penis. And does it not follow that this formula involving mules is auto-didactic in nature? But.

Yes, lets. Do we not know that Nathan Bedford Forrest said we must all "Charge both ways," which is to say that, accepting the postulate that he once had two testicles, does this not mean that the pearls of awareness are not, in fact, testicles?

It is not a matter of SIZE, but HOW THOSE WERE USED. This is what i keep telling myself.

Nice.

SandChigger wrote:Didn't Asimov include that in the Foundation books?

That was the first thing I thought of.

GREAT MINDS!


OK, enough of that.

SandChigger wrote:

loremaster wrote:Having only read the last two pages i cannot guarantee MrspBRK hasn't brain-farted at an earlier point in this thread but i think i understand what he is saying to a degree.

Oh, great, now we got people actually trying to interpret the mrpork's bullshit?

You find the occasional diamond in every steaming pile according to my aging mother. (DISCLAIMER: paraphrased, she would NEVER even suggest she knew what was referred to by the phrase "steaming pile")

However, having read the last comment about "how convenient" and Freak's blunt retort, i unequivocally take back what i said. He's an asshat.

I just dont want layman readers thinking the golden path was simple, with perhaps one cause, one mechanism and one effect. It was still the most complex, convoluted and far-reaching plan ever devised, piddling all over the attempts by the BG to manipulate humanity.

and Freak: Yes, i'm sure you're right that the BG could not be custodian's of the GP forever, just as Leto himself was not. His message on the wall at dar-es-balat is proof of that ("How will you meet your fate?"). They were baton carriers, and no more, it would be interesting to see what came of the death/changing of the bene gesserit, especially if you take the "Everything returns sooner or later in it's changed form" argument of Ghanima. perhaps the HM/BG hybrids were it. Perhaps Sheanna and her renegades were. Perhaps another, who knows? It certainly seemed Taraza and Odrade saw the potential in the future for Sheanna, but were forced into accepting Murbella because of the threat she could avert.

SandRider wrote:Fix bayonets. Take no prisoners. Slaughter the mules. Fuck 'em.

~General Nathan Bedford Forrest, Ft. Pillow, 1862

This is my new favorite quote. And that one guy is a 'tard.

follow me on Twitter/shitgeneralforrestsaid !

loremaster wrote:Having only read the last two pages i cannot guarantee MrspBRK hasn't brain-farted at an earlier point in this thread but i think i understand what he is saying to a degree.

Hey, man, i know i am a tard, but i just had promised to reply to this post so i am still gonna.

loremaster wrote: Though the mechanism was scatter (in terms of both distance, direction and more abstract forms like "diverging cultures" such as living in trees, getting away from feudalism, matriarchal societies etc) i think MRSPBRK means that there were certain conditions which had to be overcome too.

No, man, i don't. At the present time i do not subscribe to the point of view that the Scattering was the means of the GP.

loremaster wrote:It wasnt just enough to make people scatter - otherwise EVENTUALLY they would feel this nostalgia/curiosity/ for the "old empire" and come back. Part of the golden path was homogenisation of human history over 3,000 years so that most of it was eradicated, what was left was cheapened and people felt no prestige attached to heritage, rather they felt that the FUTURE held more promise. The effect of this was to KEEEP humanity scattering, ever onwards.

"Felt that the FUTURE held more promise" is somewhat like what i believe the GP to be, indeed. But, supposing there is a scattering, i think it is somewhat foolish to think that somehow a "nostalgia" would bring everyone back. We are talking about a Galaxy-spanning amount of people even in Muad'Dib times!!!

I do not disagree that the Golden Path can be described as a Scattering. My point is that if you think of it as EQUAL to the Scattering you are missing the most important part. In a way, i would say we think very much alike when you say that "(t)he effect of this was to KEEEP humanity scattering, ever onwards." The scattering is an effect, not the goal. And also, your notion that the scattering is not only about distance but also about "more abstract forms like "diverging cultures" such as living in trees, getting away from feudalism, matriarchal societies" is also in direct opposition to Freak's notion that GP=Scatter.

loremaster wrote:Related to that, instilling a wander-lust by forcing humanity to stay put, either on planet or in local regions or whatever. Suppressing the ability to travel reinforced the desire to travel.

Freedom from spice - pre-scattering travel and society was hinged around the spice. One of the things which MADE the scattering so effective was Leto removing this spice dependancy.

Maturation of humanity - such as the massively reduced rate of conflicts quoted at the start of heretics. Maybe most were avoided because there was less competition for space or resources ("Go somewhere else") but i think some were the part of deep psychological changes forced on them by Leto.

So these would be your conditions, right?

Maturation of Humanity. I could buy that -- indeed, i believe "maturation of humanity" is more important in Leto II's perspective than "run, run, run faraway". Is the adolescent who runs away from home "mature"?

Also, i just can't see how the Scattering would foster any maturation. Indeed, Ch:D tells us a story of a band of warriors (the Fish Speakers) who grew less mature through the experience of the Scattering. The Honored Matres are overly dependant on specific tools, irresponsible with power, adrenalin addicts, utterly lacking in long-term planning, incapable of delaying pleasure and so on.

Exactly in the same way that Paul's rise to the throne sounded like victory the first time i read Dune, but now sound like defeat, like "Truman Show" as in Paul is in a prison he crafted for himself and he doesn't even have a clue how, in the same vein the last time i read Ch:D the Honored Matres sounded like a small child with a big gun. And in the end they are completely out-played by Odrade.

Just two more unrelated quotes:

FH in HoD wrote:Withdrawing slightly, she pulled her light back and lay full length on the floor to stare narrowly along the base of the threshold. Here! Could she place a tool there beside that word and lever the threshold? No . . . a tool was not indicated. This thing had the smell of the Tyrant, not of a Reverend Mother. She tried to push the threshold sideways. Nothing moved.

And just to prove that i am just a groveling sycophant:

FH in HoD wrote:All organized religions face a common problem, a tender spot through which we may enter and shift them to our designs: How do they distinguish hubris from revelation?

-Missionaria Protectiva, the Inner Teachings