Re: Leto-Harum
Posted: 08 Aug 2009 13:42
LOL I guess this makes me cast out from the cast out
think about that, and what it means long term
think about that, and what it means long term
DUNE DISCUSSION FORUM FOR ORTHODOX HERBERTARIANS
http://www.jacurutu.com/
I know it saves me plenty of time from reading your drivel which provides me with enough time to have sex with my girlfriend, make her pregnant, have twins and name them Leto and Ghanima ... not too bad a deal.semuta wrote:LOL I guess this makes me cast out from the cast out
think about that, and what it means long term
hey nobody expects you to read it, i would question the wisdom of criticising something you have admitted to not actually having read though.Serkanner wrote:I know it saves me plenty of time from reading your drivel which provides me with enough time to have sex with my girlfriend, make her pregnant, have twins and name them Leto and Ghanima ... not too bad a deal.semuta wrote:LOL I guess this makes me cast out from the cast out
think about that, and what it means long term
You are welcome to stop by any day. Want my address too?semuta wrote:hey nobody expects you to read it, i would question the wisdom of criticising something you have admitted to not actually having read though.Serkanner wrote:I know it saves me plenty of time from reading your drivel which provides me with enough time to have sex with my girlfriend, make her pregnant, have twins and name them Leto and Ghanima ... not too bad a deal.semuta wrote:LOL I guess this makes me cast out from the cast out
think about that, and what it means long term
I wouldn't put the names of your kids online in a forum where somebody you are trying to make an enemy of is present. You don't know what sort of psychopath I might be nor what resources I have at my disposal. You will definitely be wanting to shoot your pregnant girlfriend up with tamiflu though, as we need all the autistic and paraplegic babies we can produce.
Tamiflu is the penicillin of the 21st century.SandRider wrote:my scrolling finger is cramped~up
and my trackball~wheel is burnt ....
Why do I doubt that?semuta wrote:okay I get the hint.
Huh? What language is that?sukran
Um ... I don't think the finger cramp and burnt ball was due to anything sexual, that he needs a shot...Serkanner wrote:Tamiflu is the penicillin of the 21st century.SandRider wrote:my scrolling finger is cramped~up
and my trackball~wheel is burnt ....
Leto's intention was never to avoid Kralizec, it was to cause it. The hacks twain have influenced your understanding af FH's work. Leto assured us in CoD that Kralizec will come, and it did, between GEoD and HoD. It was called The Famine Times and The Scattering.semuta wrote:So he claims. He deals only with the relatively short range projections (which encompass many generations of human lives) up to the point of avoiding Krazilec. We have only Letos word for it that Krazilec would have occurred without his intervention into human affairs. He never justifies this which I find very interesting.
You may question it because you don't understand. Leto's transformation prevented the extinction of humans. The Siona gene was to ensure a powerfull presient like himself could never rule over all of humanity. I believe that Leto did not look into the future past his time except to ensure humanity survives.Leto developed the Siona gene specifically to avoid the end of the human species. It is about what he envisages that he had to begin this breeding project. And I question that was his true intent; beyond the necessity to create those who are invisible to prescience, he would know that mutations such as Miles Teg were likely to follow as evolution naturally progresses. Did Leto foresee the Ones of Many Faces? Did Leto foresee Honored Matre? Leto doesn’t micromanage too far into the future because he purposefully creates a limit to his own prescient ability with the Siona gene. Then the No~ships fulfill a similar purpose.
No, the worm would eventually take over and he would lose control. Maybe if he'd hasd Sheeana's ability to control the worm... but that is speculation on my part.Bene Gesserit can adapt their bodies to reduce them aging, to prolong longevity. Leto uses these prana~bindu skills during his symbiosis with the worm. He is ‘killed’ before His transition into a sandworm runs its full course. By ‘indefinitely’ I am pondering at what would have happened if He had found a balance within himself that would hold the wild worm off and maintain his own persona’s control over the hybrid body.semuta wrote:He could have remained a bored god infinitely. That was not his agenda.
Sandchigger wrote:Nor his hybrid body's. He could NOT have remained that way "infinitely".
Is that brevity is a virtue. I'm not gonna waste my time reading through that second page of drivel you've spouted to reply to you. Unless you can provide quotes to back up what you're saying, it's just bullshit.
And I recommend you shove it up your fucking New Age Bullshit arse.
Hear, hear!loremaster wrote:Unless you can provide quotes to back up what you're saying, it's just bullshit.
could've used your knowledge & patience on Amazon the last few days, Freak.Freak wrote:Leto's intention was never to avoid Kralizec, it was to cause it. The hacks twain have influenced your understanding af FH's work. Leto assured us in CoD that Kralizec will come, and it did, between GEoD and HoD. It was called The Famine Times and The Scattering.
I don't want to comment on books I haven't read.SandRider wrote:could've used your knowledge & patience on Amazon the last few days, Freak.Freak wrote:Leto's intention was never to avoid Kralizec, it was to cause it. The hacks twain have influenced your understanding af FH's work. Leto assured us in CoD that Kralizec will come, and it did, between GEoD and HoD. It was called The Famine Times and The Scattering.
This topic is a good exaple. One day he'll be here asking us to make sense of it for him and it will be too late.Under Prester Dilly's review, buried in the comments, is an exchange between damn near
all of us and "David James".
He said he'd read Frank's Dune (meaning the first book), and one of the silly-books, I think
The BJ (aha-ha-HA) and that he intended to read them all in "chronological" order,
meaning the Silly-books intertwined with the real books ....
I told him he was a FAIL from the beginning then, and would never understand Frank's books.
He's said repeatedly that he thinks he can keep the two "styles" straight in his mind and not
let one influence his opinion of the other.
that may even be true, upon reflection. I guess a newbie could read one then the other and
be able to point out "style" differences, but the details, plotlines, characters are going to get
twisted up, I don't care how smart you are.
and David James seems reasonably intelligent, but not that damn smart.
we've seen it here before, from OHs who have read the Silly-books & got one of The Jacket's
conceptions mixed up with the real stuff. I've been tainted by association here, too, reading
some bit of drivel from the Silly-books and getting it caught up in my mind.
I told David James in my first response, before I got pissed off at him, that he was the kind
of person that makes us so goddamned mad @ Keith & the HLP. Frank's Dune is going to be
ruined and, in fact, inaccessible to him because of the misconceptions he's going to
pick up from Keith. I told him if he continues with his plan, he will never understand
Frank's Dune.
of course, my attack-dog tone put his timid, "let's just all get along" bitch-ass on the defensive,
so he didn't really listen to my point. Just started calling me crazy, which is not really breaking
news ...
a good part of the "OH Manifesto" needs to address this issue ...
TheDukester wrote:
Later...He thought: When you study an object from a distance, only its principle may
be seen. He had achieved the distance and he could see his own life now: the
multi-past and its memories were his burden, his joy, and his necessity. But the
worm trip had added another dimension and his father no longer stood guard
within him because the need no longer existed. Leto saw through the distances
clearly -- past and present. And the past presented him with an ultimate
ancestor -- one who was called Harum and without whom the distant future would
not be. These clear distances provided new principles, new dimensions of
sharing. Whichever life he now chose, he'd live it out in an autonomous sphere
of mass experience, a trail of lives so convoluted that no single lifetime could
count the generations of it. Aroused, this mass experience held the power to
subdue his selfdom. It could make itself felt upon an individual, a nation, a
society or an entire civilization. That, of course, was why Gurney had been
taught to fear him; why Namri's knife waited. They could not be allowed to see
this power within him. No one could ever see it in its fullness -- not even
Ghanima.
Presently Leto sat up, saw that only Namri remained, watching.
In an old voice, Leto said: "There's no single set of limits for all men.
Universal prescience is an empty myth. Only the most powerful local currents of
Time may be foretold. But in an infinite universe, local can be so gigantic that
your mind shrinks from it."
It was a peculiar walk his mind took. Time filled Leto's awareness like a
stellar globe. He could see infinite timespaces, but he had to press into his
own future before knowing in which moment his flesh lay. His multifaceted
memory-lives surged and receded, but they were his now. They were like waves on
a beach, but if they rose too high, he could command them and they would
retreat, leaving the royal Harum behind.
Now and again he would listen to those memory-lives. One would rise like a
prompter, poking its head up out of the stage and calling cues for his behavior.
His father came during the mind-walk and said: "You are a child seeking to be a
man. When you are a man, you will seek in vain for the child you were."
...
He had seen a future without the great grey worm-serpent of Dune. He knew
this, yet could not tear himself from the trance to rail against such a passage.
Abruptly his awareness plunged back -- back, back, away from such a deadly
future. His thoughts went into his bowels, becoming primitive, moved only by
intense emotions. He found himself unable to focus on any particular aspect of
his vision or his surroundings, but there was a voice within him. It spoke an
ancient language and he understood it perfectly. The voice was musical and
lilting, but its words bludgeoned him.
"It is not the present which influences the future, thou fool, but the
future which forms the present. You have it all backward. Since the future is
set, an unfolding of events which will assure that future is fixed and
inevitable."
The words transfixed him. He felt terror rooted in the heavy matter of his
body. By this he knew his body still existed, but the reckless nature and
enormous power of his vision left him feeling contaminated, defenseless, unable
to signal a muscle and gain its obedience. He knew he was submitting more and
more to the onslaught of those collective lives whose memories once had made him
believe he was real. Fear filled him. He thought that he might be losing the
inner command, falling at last into Abomination.
Leto felt his body twisting in terror.
He had come to depend upon his victory and the newly won benevolent
cooperation of those memories. They had turned against him, all of them -- even
royal Harum whom he'd trusted. He lay shimmering on a surface which had no
roots, unable to give any expression to his own life. He tried to concentrate
upon a mental picture of himself, was confronted by overlapping frames, each a
different age: infant into doddering ancient. He recalled his father's early
training: Let the hands grow young, then old. But his whole body was immersed
now in this lost reality and the entire image progression melted into other
faces, the features of those who had given him their memories.
A diamond thunderbolt shattered him.
Are all that Harum is mentioned, I believe."You have an admirable directness," Leto said. "I'm a community dominated by
one who was ancient and surpassingly powerful. He fathered a dynasty which
endured for three thousand of our years. His name was Harum and, until his line
trailed out in the congenital weaknesses and superstitions of a descendant, his
subjects lived in a rhythmic sublimity. They moved unconsciously with the
changes of the seasons. They bred individuals who tended to be short-lived,
superstitious, and easily led by a god-king. Taken as a whole, they were a
powerful people. Their survival as a species became habit."
"I don't like the sound of that," Farad'n said.
...
"But much more precise," Leto said. "The Bene Gesserit believed they could
predict the course of evolution. But they overlooked their own changes in the
course of that evolution. They assumed they would stand still while their
breeding plan evolved. I have no such reflexive blindness. Look carefully at me,
Farad'n, for I am no longer human."
"So your sister assures me." Farad'n hesitated. Then: "Abomination?"
"By the Sisterhood's definition, perhaps. Harum is cruel and autocratic. I
partake of his cruelty. Mark me well: I have the cruelty of the husbandman, and
this human universe is my farm. Fremen once kept tame eagles as pets, but I'll
keep a tame Farad'n."
Bullshit. You proved the opposite with that crap about a Heighliner "accidently" crashing into Chapter House. A Heighliner crashes into Wallach IX in one of the House books.semuta wrote:Freak; I dispute that Pinky&theBrain have influenced my understanding of the Duniverse, since I have not read their atrocity.
Pity you haven't a stronger stomach.I did begin to read some of it, until my stomach leapt up out of my mouth and tried to strangle me.
Yeah, so important it's mentioned IN ONLY ONE BOOK OUT OF SIX.The fremen myth of Krazilec...[snip blah blah] We know that such a myth has had great influence on the psychologies and therefore actions of the characters in the stories.
Oh, lah tee dah! Ever think he might have had a speech impediment, there, fruitcake? Um ... if he wrote the "english translation" wouldn't that have been "Thank you"? (I think you meant "transliteration". Tool.)yes, I meant it, and I also meant to spell it sukran which is the way I was taught it when my guide wrote the english translation in the dust on the streets of Luxor.SandChigger wrote:OH! Did you mean SHUKRAN, "Thank you" in Arabic?
TransLITERated. You do realize that THAT is close to gibberish, right?To illustrate my point that words have different legal spellings when translated, and that the Oral tradition often differs in its daily practicality than the orthodox state versions used to indoctrinate the masses, ...
Shenme? Ni shuo shenme hua ne? Ni ye shuo Hanyu ma?! Haojile! Jiantian tenqi hao ma?I would like to point out that the nation that you call China themselves translate the word from chinese glyphs into an english spelling it with an X, not a C. The use of C is an american and english national bias. It is this way all over the world.
What message? "Watch how I profusely can drool verbally on your screen!"Picking me up on a spelling mistale does very little to demean the message behind the words; ...
Fuck you. Seriously. With a hot pointy stick.intellectual people...
I feel certain I would find more insight shoving a thumb up my arse and singing "Oh Susanna!" at the top of my lungs.I recomend you learn to discern between New Age philosophies with genuine insights from the tradition of freemasonry.sandchigger wrote:And I recommend you shove it up your fucking New Age Bullshit arse.
Learned at the feet of (=kneeling before?) your guide in some cranny of the ruins of Luxor, right?This is not new age bullshit; this is egyptian freemasonry.
You might find if you read some of Frank Herberts books as well that this incident is mentioned in either Heretics of Dune of Chapter House Dune, I can't recall which because I always read these two back to back since one is a continuation of the other & follows the same storylines.sandchigger wrote:You proved the opposite with that crap about a Heighliner "accidently" crashing into Chapter House. A Heighliner crashes into Wallach IX in one of the House books.